From Darkness to Light: Susan Wallace's Path to Healing and Understanding

Have you ever wondered how to navigate the challenging world of addiction and family dynamics? In this heartfelt conversation with my dear Aunt Susan Wallace, we explore her journey toward healing through the support of Al-Anon and her experience with the powerful plant-based medicine, ayahuasca. Join us as Susan shares invaluable insights into finding peace and understanding in the midst of life's most difficult moments.

In this episode, we delve into Susan's involvement in Al-Anon and how it has helped her comprehend her role in the cycle of alcoholism. We also discuss her transformative experience with ayahuasca, which has significantly contributed to her personal growth. Get ready for an emotional and enlightening conversation as we discuss small-town family dynamics, the importance of having difficult conversations, and the process of consenting to trauma and healing.

By the end of our discussion, we reflect on the profound shifts that can occur as individuals and families adapt to change. Emphasizing the importance of allowing time and space for healing, this episode is a touching exploration of the power of support, love, and understanding in overcoming life's challenges. Tune in and be part of this incredible journey with my Aunt Susan Wallace.

Chapters

• 0:01 Finding Healing in Al-Anon
• 14:57 Ayahuasca and Moving Forward
• 34:55 Small Town Family Dynamics
• 48:13 The Importance of Having Difficult Conversations
• 58:28 Consenting to Trauma and Healing
• 1:03:43 Personal Growth and Family Dynamics

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Today, on the Zulu One podcast, we're joined by someone close to my heart. She's an artist, a creative soul, a retired technologist and my mother's older sister, Susan Wallace. Okay, so for people out there listening, what's your weekend been like?

Speaker 2: 0:27

It's been healing, comforting, scary. I felt loved, i felt taken care of. I have felt healed. I've felt like this weekend has been for me. Wow, what a gift It truly truly is. It truly has been.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Is that a gift that you gave yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:05

Partly I gave myself. My sister helped. My niece, helped My nephew, helped My nephew's family, because being with his family has been, i've just felt, accepted and loved and nurtured. The whole package.

Speaker 1: 1:40

Can't beat that Nope.

Speaker 2: 1:43

And you can't find that just anywhere.

Speaker 1: 1:46

You can't find that just anywhere. So tell me a little bit about what got you to this place. What started this journey?

Speaker 2: 2:07

Well, i believe my journey has been in the making for years And I've tried different things and that's advanced me somewhat. I've done conventional therapy. I have been involved in Alenon for countless years Alenon- Yes, that is.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Alenon was such an impactful thing. Yes, so what is Alenon?

Speaker 2: 2:49

It's for families who are affected by alcoholics And no, it's for families who are affected by alcoholism, friends and families.

Speaker 3: 3:03

Okay.

Speaker 2: 3:04

You don't have to have a. It doesn't have to be a relative. It could be a friend, And a lot of people know what AA is, but they don't know what Alenon is And Alenon a lot of people who are involved in AA think naturally, that you just go and talk about them.

Speaker 1: 3:27

Okay. So, like the alcoholics, think that what an Alenon meaning is just you talking about them?

Speaker 2: 3:36

Right, because what else would you talk about Exactly? They're the most important thing in the world.

Speaker 3: 3:41

It's not a selfish disease at all.

Speaker 1: 3:42

No, And you don't, yeah, of course.

Speaker 2: 3:48

You don't talk about them at all. You talk about yourself and learning how you react to the alcoholism and the alcoholic And learning that you do have a part in it.

Speaker 1: 4:05

Learning that you have a part in it, and so does it address the codependency piece In some Yes, okay.

Speaker 2: 4:14

So we speak around codependency, but really my reaction to my alcoholic just further perpetuated the disease and the cycle. And thinking that I could save him, thinking that I could control him, thinking that I had to just pretend that everything was okay and don't look behind the curtain because there's a shit show going on back there, Yeah, yeah, you started Alenon years.

Speaker 1: 5:01

I mean like a long time ago.

Speaker 2: 5:03

In 1990. Wow, and my husband went into rehab And I thought at the time he doesn't need to go to rehab, he's not an alcoholic, he's got a job.

Speaker 1: 5:22

So it was like the concept of alcoholism was like the old timey bomb on the streets hiccuping with the bottle with the 3X's on it.

Speaker 2: 5:34

And my husband had a job and he was successful, and so I thought he couldn't possibly be an alcoholic. But oh, he hit a fan load of people, he could have killed them, and they suggested that I go to Alenon. And actually my daughter's teacher took his kids to Alateen and he had overheard my daughter talking to a friend about her dad going into rehab, and so I was chaperoning an event and he came up to me and said you know, i take my kids to Alateen, i could pick up your daughter and take her. And I thought I don't need him to do that for me, i can take her. And that's how I started going to Alenon.

Speaker 1: 6:34

So 1990, that's I mean 30 years ago, that this point you know, Yes, Wow, I mean that's was that kind of the first foray into this kind of group therapy, kind of.

Speaker 2: 6:49

Yes, i had an individual therapy before that, but that's the first time I'd ever, you know, worked with a group. And then my preschool teacher asked me if I wanted to work with a smaller group who was doing a workbook on the steps. And so we met for eight years consistently, every single week. That's huge, and those women saved my life.

Speaker 1: 7:23

That's incredible. Well, because I've always heard you know 12 step language in the family And I know a lot of it comes from that. you know, like expectations is resentment under construction. Oh you're good, that's a good one. It is, man, that's a good one. That one really stuck with me.

Speaker 2: 7:42

And it's hard to grasp.

Speaker 1: 7:45

Oh yeah, that one really stuck with me. So expectations is resentment under construction, because it's so like, it's so deep in the fact that of that assumption of responsibility for your shit, exactly For your shit.

Speaker 2: 8:02

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 8:03

That's that. One is that one is always really resonated with me.

Speaker 2: 8:09

And when, um, if the alcoholic is still drinking, you step out of the dance and do something differently, than they can't react the same way. So sometimes that brings the alcoholic to sober living. Sometimes it doesn't Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:34

My husband, i believe, was sober for a year after rehab and um and I continued to go to Allen on um and then he moved on and I still was involved in Al-Anon but then kind of dropped off because I thought I'm not living with an alcoholic, i don't need to do this any longer. And then my sister was in the same situation and I brought her back from Atlanta to Michigan because she was in a bad situation And so I went with her to Al-Anon and thought I would support her And, bingo, I still need it.

Speaker 1: 9:23

Yeah, I just I remember that time that when you guys were going and it was just so powerful to see some like infrastructure, you know, rather than white knuckling Exactly You know, rather than white knuckling this thing by yourself, And it's like there should be an Alalife, you know, like you know there should really be an Alalife, Because if you're doing something, you know, like man, when Miranda and I started going to Al-Anon, it's just, it was so powerful, It was so powerful And it's like if they meet you where you're at, it's kind of a not you can just sit there and say nothing.

Speaker 2: 10:03

Non-judgmental.

Speaker 1: 10:05

You can just sit there and say nothing, absolutely Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:07

And we've had women who will come for a year and not speak. They can't speak And then all of a sudden they open up and you can see the change. You can see the change in every person around the room And it's amazing. They can't see it, but you can, looking at the other people.

Speaker 1: 10:29

And it's so much about context That's what I found that I saw. It's like, oh, my situation so unique and blah, blah, blah and all the you know demons that you have. And then you go into this room and it's like, oh, you're alcoholics doing the same thing. Well, welcome to the show, kid.

Speaker 2: 10:46

I'm not unique, And it could be a son or a daughter, a spouse or a parent, but the thread is all the same.

Speaker 1: 10:55

Yeah, the whole thing, yeah, and it's so much of a work that, like you know, the the Serenity Prayer is like just talking about. You know the things that you can control, the things that you can control and the wisdom to know the difference.

Speaker 1: 11:09

It's like there's some things you just can't control Right, you know and there's things that you can't. You can control when you brush your teeth, you can control what time you wake up, you can control if you make your better or not, but you can't control what's happening in Russia and Ukraine. You can't control if he's going to drink or not, or she's going to drink or not. You can't control any of those things. But you can control your reaction towards it.

Speaker 2: 11:30

Absolutely, and learning that he didn't drink because of something I didn't pick up the laundry, or I did this or I did that, even though he said it, just because he said it didn't make it true. He drank because he's an alcoholic allergic to alcohol And just as he was addicted to alcohol, i was addicted to him And that makes that the very same with both my sisters.

Speaker 1: 12:03

That makes sense.

Speaker 2: 12:05

So I went to support my sister, learned that, oh yes, I really do need to be here, And that was probably 10 years ago.

Speaker 3: 12:16

Okay.

Speaker 2: 12:17

And I continue to go because it's a wonderful push prescription for living.

Speaker 1: 12:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 12:25

And I kind of feel sorry for the people who don't have that qualifier for a dollar a week.

Speaker 1: 12:34

Yeah, really, For a dollar a week And you can get a sponsor. You can be as involved or not involved in the program as you want.

Speaker 2: 12:42

And it's like and it's very just kind of supportive in that, in that infrastructure, you know and you know, if you don't want to work it, you don't have to, yeah, but if you do, the benefits are incredible. Yeah, yeah, in every single relationship of your life, everyone co workers, spouses, everyone, your children.

Speaker 1: 13:08

It's such a worker responsibility, you know. Yeah, so you know I've had this, i've had this kind of thought about how you know, and obviously this is a consolation. This is a podcast about consolations usually and then kind of everything that orbits around that right Medicine work and Tolstoy program And it's really about healing and in all modalities really. But like I always look at everything through that, that family consolation lens, do you think that like? what do you think the relationship with family consolations with the step 12 step program? What do you think is the most appropriate kind of yin and yang or given dance of those two modalities?

Speaker 2: 13:54

I think all of everything you try all works together, because I've done constellations And and I just did ayahuasca And it all works together to heal.

Speaker 1: 14:17

Do you think it works on like different levels, like different levels of depth of the same kind of matrix?

Speaker 2: 14:24

Probably, and I'm slow, so it's taken me a long time to integrate, like the Allen on thinking into my life. And and then the constellation thinking, and now I've just experienced this ayahuasca And it's like the top of my head is blown off. Wow, yeah, that's a, that's a lot, yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:54

Yeah, that's a lot. So, tell me about that experience. The ayahuasca, like what? from from the very beginning, it's like you hear about this word and you're like what is this?

Speaker 3: 15:05

What?

Speaker 1: 15:06

is this, This crazy week? Oh, you know these weirdo people.

Speaker 3: 15:11

Yeah, And I, I, I think I'm never I never smoked pot.

Speaker 1: 15:15

I didn't never any do any drugs I mean, that's not me.

Speaker 2: 15:20

And then you know my sister has gone up a deep end and she's doing this stuff, and my niece and my nephew And I'm like, Oh my God, um, it's like you know psychedelic mushrooms or something. And I'm like, i'm like, i'm like, um, it's like you know psychedelic mushrooms or something. And and then you know, they start suggesting I think about this. And you know at first time like I don't know why, and then I heard that Will Smith has done 13.

Speaker 3: 15:56

Okay.

Speaker 2: 15:57

And I'm thinking, okay, he's not such a such a good place right now. It was just after the slap.

Speaker 3: 16:03

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:04

And um, i think it won't really didn't build a good case for it, just really you know so, um, then my sister called and said Okay, there's one opening on this date in Miami.

Speaker 2: 16:20

And, um, you have to decide right now. But I think I had started down the path thinking that I was going to do it because I had gone off my anti-depressant that I had been on for years, since my alcoholic left Um, and I was in a tough place because I'd lost so many people. We'd have had a lot of deaths um in the family, and then I lost my husband, my second husband, and he was my gift for surviving the alcoholic. He was an absolute gift. And losing him He had been with me for all those other deaths. And then I was alone. So I was in kind of a dark place and I told my sister that I had been stuck and darned. She remembered I said that and said Well, you said you've been stuck. If you want to get unstuck, you can try this. So who then? you know? then, all of a sudden she says Okay, you've got to start this And you can't eat this and this and this and this, and you've got to do this and get to Miami. And I did it.

Speaker 1: 18:03

And you did it.

Speaker 2: 18:04

I did it And that was one of the things Um grassy ask about. You know what are your reflections Um somewhere towards the end of it And I said I cannot believe I did it. I'm 68 years old. This isn't way out of my realm.

Speaker 1: 18:22

I mean talk about being out of your comfort zone. Oh, absolutely. This is 1000 miles outside your comfort zone. Absolutely It's really, oh man, I'm going to get emotional. That's really courageous, It was. That's really brave to do that, Because it's not like man, just the power of the human spirit. You know, just to be like, I'm going to do something completely outside of my comfort zone. Just really brave And people are brave all the time.

Speaker 2: 19:01

You know they allow themselves to be.

Speaker 3: 19:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:05

If we don't get in our own way.

Speaker 3: 19:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:11

I can't believe I did it.

Speaker 1: 19:15

Do you think that, like all of this was a culmination to get to this point, like doing Al-Anon constellations, that like just uncovering layers of stuff? Yes, that had you ready for this moment to be able to do this big, big, because seems like all this stuff is just movement right. Movement out of the muck of that stuckness right is like being in the same cycle, in the same thing. I sometimes think that 12 step programs do that, like they kind of self indulge a little bit in that stuckness program, but then you do this other big work and then it gets you out of it and then you can use you can continue to use that infrastructure as a shared language to get out of it.

Speaker 2: 19:55

Except the 12 stop says that you will be of service to other people, and so I still continue to go. I don't live with anyone. I still continue to go to Allen on because there were people there for me And I want to be there for other people. It's not that I'm not learning anything from it, because I always do, but I want to be there for other people.

Speaker 1: 20:23

I couldn't imagine what what that support system feels like of people that you've been working with or dealing like that. You that have been supporting each other for 30 years, you know out of this group. That is incredible. It's amazing.

Speaker 2: 20:39

We had a woman who had no family and she had, she had a chronic disease and then she found out she had breast cancer. She they really couldn't treat the breast cancer because of her chronic disease And so she knew that she was going to die. And she had no one and she didn't want to go into a nursing home. So our group was able to support her through hospice and you know what that's like, your, i mean, you have nurses and you have support, but you're there 24, seven And around the clock.

Speaker 2: 21:15

we had people doing different things. I'd go over. you know, my days were Monday, wednesday and Friday. I'd go over, get her up in the morning, give her pills. She had the death that she wanted. Oh, that's beautiful, and it was all through Ellen and support.

Speaker 3: 21:38

There's something to be said about a beautiful transition.

Speaker 2: 21:43

Yes, and she taught me so much, so much, but she was a person at Elena that would drive me nuts in the beginning. You know like sometimes somebody would talk long or something but she would drive me nuts. But then towards the end she I sometimes would look over at her and she was always cold. So she always had a coat on and a hat and you know, she was, you know, just down to nothing And still would come to Elena and it would be like I could see around her hat. It looked like a halo and what she would come out of her mouth was so profound Wow, it was a she like had edited her words down to the end And so the only things that came out were profound. It was amazing.

Speaker 1: 22:48

And there's, you know. One thing that I've learned from all the deaths is that there's so many profound lessons at the end. Yes, it's such a beautiful teacher. Yes, you know.

Speaker 2: 23:01

It is such a privilege to be with someone in their final hours.

Speaker 3: 23:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:08

And it doesn't have to be traumatic. No, it doesn't have to be, you know, like taking horrible news and doing all that stuff. It can be somber and sincere and funny. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3: 23:24

We know that.

Speaker 1: 23:26

It can be very funny and it can be, you know, moving and full of just of beautiful moments and pain and just. It can be really real and authentic. And there's things get real authentic when you're at the end Right.

Speaker 2: 23:42

And just as it's such a thrill and an honor to be with a baby coming into the world, it's the same thing.

Speaker 3: 23:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:55

Yeah, do you will go into this part. You know the the the death part, which is interesting. You know when grandpa died, you know I remember him being there And he's like, ok, that's my grandfather. And then he, true, lost breath. And then he wasn't Right And that was the weirdest, most real thing I've ever seen, because it was like oh, there's a couch Right. Zero meaning Right, no connection.

Speaker 2: 24:32

We were all focused on him And then we just turned our attention. He was gone. We turned our attention and he was just over here, but that's not where the focus was. He had left his body.

Speaker 1: 24:48

It's just he wasn't. You know, some people is like no longer with us, like that is so yeah. It's in and you know we have this reverence and this thing for the body, but it's like the body was like it could have been. I don't know this, this, this, you know vase, or this candle it's the same day it's there's just no attachment or meaning to the vessel, like it. Just it just put so much into context that we're not our meat vessel, you know exactly, we're not our container. We're not our container.

Speaker 2: 25:25

And okay, what are we going to put on him, you know? oh, wouldn't it be funny to put these white shoes on?

Speaker 1: 25:31

His balleballe, but it was just not a like, a not a thing. It wasn't a thing at all. You know, it's just. That's so such a profound lesson, and you can like that when you're with somebody there, he's like that person's more there than here.

Speaker 2: 25:51

Yes, yes. And at the end, when they're in and out and back and forth and and with Belinda saying you know well, where do all the people go, or one time she, you know, opened her eyes and said I was just with dad. And you know, i just said, well, how is he? He's good.

Speaker 1: 26:21

That's incredible. Yeah, i remember. so you know, for people that don't know, my cousin Carson was 31. Yeah, 31 when he passed and short battle with cancer metastasized. And then there was a hippo endectomy for a young, very extremely athletic Young man And his transition was really different. It wasn't a transition of somebody that was ready to go Right, it was almost fighting.

Speaker 2: 27:01

He fought it.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Being here and there, right, yes.

Speaker 3: 27:08

Because that's who he was. He was a fighter.

Speaker 2: 27:11

He was an Air Force veteran, he was a fighter, he played football. He fought his entire life.

Speaker 1: 27:18

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:20

He was even competitive with death. Yes, so of course he would fight it.

Speaker 1: 27:24

Yeah, yeah, because I know I wasn't there obviously for his passing, but remember everybody saying how you know that and like he would leave and then come back.

Speaker 2: 27:36

Numerous times And you think, okay, that's it And no.

Speaker 3: 27:42

Was it.

Speaker 2: 27:44

And one time he even said whoa, did you see what just happened? I just died Wow.

Speaker 1: 27:54

Oh man, that is incredible. Yeah, wow, hmm, there were so many lessons in his death. Yes, you know There were so many lessons in his death. That's one of the things that I learned about it, so there was just so many lessons in it. You know we didn't see eye to eye, you know majority of our lives, but they were like so profoundly grateful to him. Yeah, you know, so profoundly grateful.

Speaker 2: 28:29

And then he came back to Marshall Yeah To die, and that his wife allowed that.

Speaker 1: 28:37

Yeah, and he's like amazing. Yeah, it's pretty incredible. So you're from a small town in Marshall, central Michigan. Yes, town of 7000.

Speaker 2: 28:50

6800.

Speaker 1: 28:51

6800 right now.

Speaker 2: 28:53

Today.

Speaker 1: 28:54

Well, 600 and 700. 6700 and 99, since you're here, Exactly.

Speaker 2: 29:00

I'll go back to 6800 when you go back Exactly On Tuesday.

Speaker 1: 29:07

What was it like growing up in a small town and so much kind of death happening? What was that like?

Speaker 2: 29:17

Well, i didn't exactly grow up in Marshall, but I've been back since I was newly married, so a long time. The thing I love about Marshall is that the people are passionate, so they have convictions and so they sometimes fight. Okay, but if somebody needs something, they're there for you. So we had so many people do so many wonderful things for us with all of those deaths because we just had one after another, after another.

Speaker 1: 30:12

People in town would be like oh Right.

Speaker 2: 30:14

I could see you walking around and be like oh Right, oh, i'm so sorry about filling the blank. You know they brought food and they just did so many things for us to support us, and one of the really cool things they did at Christmas time. Carson died in November and so at Christmas time they set up some trees and they were Memorial Christmas trees that you could decorate. So Thanksgiving, all the kids were there and the relatives were there and we all made decorations for Carson's tree And then it was freezing cold and the kids and Sydney and I went and decorated the tree and it was such a bonding awesome experience for us. That was really cool And that's something only Marshall can do.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Like Grandpa would say that Marshall takes care of its widows.

Speaker 2: 31:23

He did And six months before he died they came back to Marshall and because he knew that Marshall would take care of mom Six months, that's amazing, it was six months. Yeah, it was such a short period of time, wow, wow.

Speaker 1: 31:52

What was it like? I mean, i would imagine there's good things and bad things about being such a small town. What are the cons?

Speaker 2: 32:03

The conflicts And everyone you know thinks they know who you are and thinks they know your business. But, man, the good things outweigh the bad They really do for me. Yeah, i never. I didn't want to raise my kids in one spot and have them never move, and that's exactly what I did. That was not my plan.

Speaker 1: 32:46

But there's something beautiful to that right. There's something beautiful to knowing everybody and everybody knows you. There's a lot of country songs about that, you know. the country music industry has built a whole library of music based on that concept, right.

Speaker 2: 33:06

Yes. And for me to go into an Allen on meeting, my first Allen on meeting and seeing my nursery school teacher, I thought, oh crap, she's going to know. And it took me about three meetings before I figured out. Oh wait, a minute, she's here for the same reason I am, Yeah. And then she continued to teach me by starting that group that we work through the step workbook and she taught me to her death. She ended up with Alzheimer's and I would see pictures. She ended up moving to Florida with her daughter and I'd see pictures of her with the most beautiful smile. She was just happy as can be. She taught me so much, Wow.

Speaker 1: 34:02

What was your name?

Speaker 2: 34:04

Rosemary. She was a beautiful, beautiful woman and she ended up her first husband died and she started dating the Methodist minister and he lived across the street from us And they were so cute. They were so cute and he just adored her. So they'd come over for dinner and he'd say now we're going to have dinner and then you need to leave. They were so stinking cute.

Speaker 1: 34:43

At like four o'clock in the afternoon.

Speaker 2: 34:46

And they were in there probably late seventies then.

Speaker 3: 34:52

Wow.

Speaker 1: 34:55

What are some of the benefits?

Speaker 2: 34:57

Of living in a small town, The support you don't have to explain, They know. You know you've lost your mother, father, sister, nephew. They know all that If they support me, they'll support my children and vice versa. So if they support my children, they'll also support me. And when something bad happens, they rally around. You know they're having countless families that maybe they've lost their home to a fire and or cancer or whatever. And they just rally around and all of a sudden you know they've raised enough money to get the person through And they may not even know them. They may even know the name, or oh, that's my doctor's daughter And so I'm going to support her. Wow, And some of my children's teachers taught me, They taught my children, And some even have taught grandchildren.

Speaker 1: 36:26

Really Yes, wow, that's incredible Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:31

Geez. Not too long ago I was at Shuler's and a restaurant for dinner And with some friends and the friends are older than I am He had had Mr Ickes was our English teacher. He had had Mr Ickes, i had Mr Ickes. He, mr Ickes, came to Billy's open house my son's open house and made him a book, made him a little book that he drew pictures in. Mr Ickes was at Shuler's Geez And one time during a conference I said you don't remember me, i was really quiet. He said what's your name And I told him and he said oh, you sat in the second seat in the first row. I remember you.

Speaker 1: 37:24

That's incredible Yeah.

Speaker 3: 37:28

Wow.

Speaker 1: 37:34

So you can really understand the context of a town or a community. Right, It's like you really understand the fabric of what that community's like. Yes, I mean we were talking about earlier today about kind of that history that Syndrome Michigan has, about the sanatoriums, about the Kellogg's. You know, the circumcision push, the puritanism kind of the sexual repression. What do you think is that effect that's been in the larger community?

Speaker 2: 38:13

I had never thought about it until we started discussing it today. I'd never thought of that, but it is rampant And there have been some issues in our town.

Speaker 1: 38:33

Yeah, And it's so much about it and just stems from unresolved trauma. right, Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 38:38

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:40

Absolutely Yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:44

So much. Of it is just those patterns repeating.

Speaker 2: 38:49

And not being at trust.

Speaker 1: 38:52

And not being addressed. Yeah, just like Alan starts addressing those things and starts creating those scenarios And I don't know many other things. I know Constellations does it And maybe you know some other modalities address that stuff, and just I'm trying to the thing that I'm just kind of working on not working on but just very curious about. It's like how do you address unresolved trauma in a communal fabric, right, and it's like how many people in that community does it take to change the momentum and address the things that need to be healed? Because there's no doubt that it's an incredible community that has all this benefit and all these good things, right, like, how do you address and make the community stronger by giving an infrastructure for unresolved trauma?

Speaker 2: 39:51

I think it takes brave people to step up, step out and speak the truth And pull back that veil And not let it continue And pretend it's not happening. Yeah, That's the scariest part.

Speaker 1: 40:13

Yeah, that's the scariest part, for most people is to look at it, you know.

Speaker 2: 40:17

And I think that's for me. What Allinon did in the very beginning was looking at it, saying this is what's happening, Not hiding it, Not trying to be the perfect family and show the world that, oh yeah, we're all fine, But pulling back the curtain, looking at it and saying this is what's going on, And with my sisters and I we're all very, very close, But we hid that from each other. What was going on in our own homes?

Speaker 1: 40:57

So in an Allinon meeting, you know what I learned. What fine stands for Fucking, insane, neurotic and exhausted.

Speaker 2: 41:07

We were all fine, all of us, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 41:14

So okay, that's. I think that's a good segue into kind of the next gear into this conversation. is that okay? so where does you and your sisters right, and one of your sisters is my mother, yes, you know clearly, this is what this conversation is. So what are your sisters and my mother and tell me about? what's the three legs of the stool concept? What's that? Where did that? what does that come from? How do you address it? How do you, how do you understand that, that family dynamic?

Speaker 2: 41:52

So my parents were a unit and the three of us were a unit And my dad was driven. He was, he traveled a lot. He, you know, in later years owned his own business and so and my mom was supporting him. Like my sisters and I, i believe that our mom was addicted to our dad and and the world revolved around him, so she was really busy. He was a busy man.

Speaker 2: 42:35

He was a busy man And so she was busy taking care of him and trying to control, and you know like interference and you know like right right Run that allow that whole show. And then there were the three of us.

Speaker 1: 42:54

I'm gonna keep the Benny Hill thing going on.

Speaker 2: 42:56

Right Yeah. And one of his business cohorts always referred to him as PT, PT Barnum.

Speaker 1: 43:11

And it's kind of it's kind of was. Yeah, he kind of was Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:18

So there was a lot to deal with, but then that kind of left the three of us to fend for ourselves and my role as the oldest. I felt and and I think I was told this I mean they always said take care of your sisters.

Speaker 1: 43:40

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:41

Watch out for your sisters.

Speaker 1: 43:42

What a huge amount of responsibility.

Speaker 2: 43:44

Right, I did something wrong which my youngest sister was known to do once in a while. It was my responsibility to watch out for her and make sure she didn't do that.

Speaker 3: 44:04

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:07

Do you think it's? it comes as a defense mechanism for you guys to come together as that triangle of?

Speaker 2: 44:14

Yes, so when we lost, when Cindy and I lost one leg, the stool fell down Big time That was. That was devastating. It was not our first loss. Our dad had died first, but this was the really and she was. She was not old, she was 50. She was 52 or 55.

Speaker 1: 44:44

Yeah, 53.

Speaker 2: 44:45

Somewhere in there. So she was not old. It was too young for her to die, and that, just you know, knocked the legs out on it from under us.

Speaker 1: 44:59

Because there wasn't. Do you think it was because of the proximity of you three that there wasn't space for each one to be like an independent unit on your own?

Speaker 2: 45:12

Right, we were all. We were Amashed Once, totally, totally, we were one unit, one stool.

Speaker 1: 45:22

I couldn't imagine that what that's like, what losing her would be like. It was awful, it's like you die.

Speaker 2: 45:33

What do you mean?

Speaker 1: 45:34

Like a piece of you Right.

Speaker 2: 45:35

Dying Right. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 45:43

Like you literally feel like a piece of you is dying, like your arm and leg and like Right Lung.

Speaker 2: 45:49

Yeah, and you walk around afterwards and think don't people know that? you know I'm missing an arm. How could you expect me to deal with anything? I'm missing an arm?

Speaker 1: 46:06

No, i don't know What gifts were in that transition Um or were there any?

Speaker 2: 46:19

Oh, absolutely Oh. She had the best death of anyone I know. I mean she was like a queen. She lived in this gorgeous apartment that. I mean she couldn't afford Um it was a cool place.

Speaker 1: 46:37

It was. It was a very cool place.

Speaker 2: 46:40

And so many people came to visit her and talk with her and bring her presence in, and and Cindy would just. You know, what do you want today? You want a baloney sandwich. I mean because?

Speaker 2: 46:57

we ate baloney sandwiches when we were little um with Fritos on them And um, she, just she had the very best death And we laughed and we cried, and and the family all came together. It was, i mean, nobody could ask for more. She got everything she wanted in her funeral. We discussed that And you know what? This is one of the lessons I've learned with um Belinda staff.

Speaker 2: 47:43

One night I was, it was my turn to um sleep on the couch next to her bed And um, in the middle of the night I woke up and she was awake and and I started to say you know, Belinda, i just want to tell you. And she said, nope, we're not doing that. I was going to say goodbye And she said, no, we're not doing it, and I didn't. And then, um, my husband had Parkinson's, so I knew what was coming. I didn't think it was going to be as fast as it was, but, um, we had, you know, kind of had the conversation of what he wanted when he died, and but not, you know, like someday, yeah, not concrete conversation.

Speaker 2: 48:40

And he just kept saying, well, I want to be with you. I want to, i just want to be with you And um, and he never acknowledged that he was dying And you know he was in a hospice and you know he's in a hospital bed and he was at home, but he never acknowledged that he was dying.

Speaker 2: 49:02

So we never had the conversation, And what I've learned is to have those conversations, no matter how hard they are. Have those difficult conversations. It's so important because once they're gone you don't have the opportunity, and that's something I hope I will keep with me and and spread that message.

Speaker 3: 49:35

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:38

I mean, I know that there's never a good time to have that conversation. No but it's so important, it's so important, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:49

I felt robbed because I didn't have it with both of them.

Speaker 1: 49:56

Were there things that weren't said, that you wanted to say?

Speaker 2: 50:00

No, i mean, he knew I loved him. He knew that, Um, and I knew he loved me. So there wasn't anything um unsaid other than you know, what do you expect me to do when you die? What do you expect me to live? How am I going to do that?

Speaker 1: 50:29

Was it almost like asking for permission to continue?

Speaker 2: 50:35

Probably I didn't want to.

Speaker 3: 50:41

That's big.

Speaker 2: 50:43

The person who knew me the best, saw me, was gone.

Speaker 3: 50:54

Wow.

Speaker 2: 50:59

And I didn't want to be here without him. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 51:06

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 51:15

That was the most difficult for me. Belinda was really, really, really hard. But losing Dave because he was always there, he was there for me with Belinda, i think Dave was the most difficult.

Speaker 1: 51:43

Do you feel now that you can?

Speaker 2: 51:48

I feel like I can honor him by living and caring on Because he believed in me, he loved me, he knew I could do it.

Speaker 1: 52:00

That's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 52:01

So if it would be a dishonor to him if I didn't continue to live, That, in his honor, he'll continue. Yes.

Speaker 1: 52:24

Give me goosebumps. Wow, is there such that danger of following Right? You know Right. Yeah, that happens so often.

Speaker 2: 52:38

And that we were talking about earlier. That happened with Carson and Bullitt.

Speaker 1: 52:43

Yes, so let's talk about that a little bit. So my aunt is diagnosed with angiosarcoma And then it metastasized to her. She broke her hip. That's how they found out that she had this cancer. She went to pick up a letter that fell on the ground and bent over and collapsed And then they saw see that her femoral head is dead Right And has a. She breaks her hip Right And then they find out that it is cancer And within four months four months she's gone Right And she's a middle child Well, she's the youngest right And her son that they were very close, extremely close. Shortly after develops congiosarcoma.

Speaker 2: 53:56

Yes, Six months to the day after his mother died, he had surgery on his hip to remove assist.

Speaker 1: 54:07

So it was the same hip like the left leg. Yes, the left hip and his femoral head was dying or decaying. Yes, And he has a full hip replacement.

Speaker 2: 54:19

He had a full hip replacement And then when he had the hip first they removed assist. Then it was maybe, maybe six months later that they did the hip replacement and found the congiosarcoma. So then it was probably six months after that that they did. They had to do a hemipelopectomy.

Speaker 1: 54:51

Hemipelopectomy, that's a removal of the full leg and a quarter of the hip right, yes, of the pelvic foot bone.

Speaker 2: 55:02

Yes, and then it was maybe six months later that he was gone.

Speaker 1: 55:11

Because it had metastasized those lungs.

Speaker 2: 55:13

Yes.

Speaker 1: 55:13

Yes, so it talks. I mean probabilistically two different types of extraordinarily rare cancers.

Speaker 3: 55:25

Right.

Speaker 1: 55:27

Metastasizing and presenting in the same way.

Speaker 2: 55:31

Same place.

Speaker 1: 55:32

Same place And then both people passing not to say that, you know, this is medical evidence, but it has a strong suggestion that there's something more at play. Absolutely, What a lesson.

Speaker 2: 55:52

Yeah, yes.

Speaker 1: 55:54

You know, and in constellation work we know, that there's books out there. I think I can't remember what his name is, but there's a book out there called Even If It Costs Me My Life.

Speaker 3: 56:05

Wow.

Speaker 1: 56:06

Yeah, That's like I'm so loyal to you that I will even sacrifice my life out of unconscious loyalty to the family system. Wow, So that gives me goosebumps.

Speaker 1: 56:20

I mean that is the most powerful force in the world is that loyalty. Because, if you know, and that gift that Carson and we called my Aunt Belinda, aunt Boo, gave me, is that if a kid, you know, a young man, super athlete, elite athlete, air Force veteran, combat veteran, you know, officer, us Air Force Academy, you know, loved by many rock star type type of dude, right Rock, super rock star, there's a mural at the Air Force Academy of him you know, superstar right That if none of that could have stopped him and that loyalty is so strong than anything is possible, Right.

Speaker 2: 57:18

And he would even say I want to be with Mama Bird.

Speaker 3: 57:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:27

Man, oh, and I remember Aunt Boo not wanting to be here, right? You know that's the reality, right? Just I just remember her not wanting to be here and her saying it you know, and it's just so heartbreaking. Yeah, you know, and it just makes me angry too.

Speaker 2: 57:48

Yeah. You know, because she was so stinking funny. Yeah, she was fun and she was awesome.

Speaker 3: 57:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:59

But she, she, she was finally able to let go of her husband at the very last second, but I don't know if she ever really let go.

Speaker 3: 58:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 58:17

I mean she divorced him, but I don't believe she ever let go.

Speaker 3: 58:21

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 58:25

I mean, i just know how. And you put into the unresolved trauma and to that, into that mix and it's all this manifestation of what that looks like. You know, and it's just so painful that there is an alternative. But also you have to consent to people's destinies. Yes, you know, and respect them and say I consent to that being your path. Yeah, you know it's so hard because you don't want to. And you know the train, you know my man, i'm going to get emotional. My mom used to say it's like I know the train's coming and it's going to blow everything up. It's like and there's nothing you can do about it. You know the train wrecks coming right, like the bridge is blown up and the train's on its way and it's not going to stop. And you just like, please, no, just so catastrophic, but to consent to the, to that, to that journey. You know that's so tough. That's such a tough thing because we all want to control, right, right.

Speaker 2: 59:36

Yeah, and when she was first diagnosed I knew she wouldn't go through treatment and I was angry. But then I understood Yeah, it's her choice, she got to die the way she wanted to And I don't know, as I mean, i think treatment would have maybe prolonged her death. Who wants to live like that? Yeah, it never would have cured her. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:18

But what I mean? such profound lessons in it. You know, it's like you almost have to consent to learning all those lessons and it being the way it is right. And we, i know we reminisce and we say, man, it would have been awesome if they were here to be able to go through this. But that's the, that's the trade off. You know that's the trade off And that's okay.

Speaker 2: 1:00:45

That's the hard part.

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

That's the shitty part.

Speaker 3: 1:00:47

They're just like that's okay. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:59

I'm glad we're here.

Speaker 2: 1:01:00

I'm so glad I'm here. I'm so very glad. I'm so glad I did this. I'm so glad I took this this time for myself and for my journey and my healing. And I'm glad I did it for my kids. They don't want to deal with a nutcase. They've dealt with me enough.

Speaker 1: 1:01:34

I mean, but this, this is interesting too And I and I'm, you know, when I was talking, so I took a comedy class, right, i stand up comedy class, and the guy was a shout out to Michael Panzeca. So Michael was like a family therapist, you know, type of addiction specialist, kind of person, and that there's this, this like a wellness place here in South Florida, and you know he was like you know, no, no, nothing to do with consolation, never talked about consolation. See, we know what a family consolation was. And he's like you don't treat the addict man. He's like kind of this laid back guy smoke cigarettes, and he's like you don't treat the family man. You don't treat the, the, the addict, you treat the whole family.

Speaker 1: 1:02:23

He's like when, when the addict and when you said that when the addict learns how to dance salsa and steps dancing merengue with the family, that's what, literally what he said stops dancing merengue with the family, they either have to learn how to dance salsa or they stopped dancing. And you're like, when he said that, i was like, oh my gosh, i was so profound. Yeah, you know, and and and that's what happens in many when you solve, when you're not solved, but when you heal the patterns of trauma. People stop dancing salsa.

Speaker 1: 1:02:59

They stop you know, they stop dancing that old dance that happened, that you know you be like Hey, every time I've done A and B, c's happen. And then you do A and B and it doesn't. It's like a chord that doesn't resolve. You don't want a song. It's like and they, you know, we expect the court, the song to resolve, like the court and the buildup to resolve. It's like it doesn't resolve And you're like this is weird, what has changed?

Speaker 1: 1:03:28

And so that song either dissipates and fades away and you create a new song, or you go and and or leave the music altogether. Right, it's like you can. That's. It's that dynamic that you like and it's not. I don't. I don't think it's only with addicts, i think it's with all family dynamics, right, and that you won't be the same person that you were yesterday and you'll go back and you're not going to be the same person And the whole ecosystem will have to adapt to that new version of who you are And they'll choose to adapt as you get it differently. You see, and I'm like man, that we used to have this thing and it just no longer happens. It's so, so, so profound and interesting. It's a lot of shifting.

Speaker 2: 1:04:20

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

So what are some lessons that you're taking for this weekend?

Speaker 2: 1:04:26

Oh man, so many, so many, so many. I, i'm still processing, wow, still processing, and I, i think I will be for quite some time, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:04:47

You got to let the dust settle for a long time. Yeah, it's going to, and it's going to settle in a completely new place.

Speaker 2: 1:04:53

It'll be interesting, really interesting, yeah. So thank you, you're welcome For your part in this and you've had a huge part in it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:07

Thank you for being open. I love you you.