ZuluOne: Heal the Wounds You Didn't Know You Carried
Welcome to the ZuluOne Podcast, your space for transformative conversations on systemic healing, family constellations, and transgenerational trauma. Inspired by the work of Bert Hellinger, this podcast explores the hidden dynamics shaping our lives and offers tools to heal ancestral wounds and foster personal growth.
Through biweekly episodes featuring expert guests and heartfelt discussions, we delve into topics like family systems, cultural awareness, and the path to deeper self-understanding. Whether you are seeking personal healing or exploring systemic patterns, the ZuluOne Podcast is here to guide your journey.
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ZuluOne: Heal the Wounds You Didn't Know You Carried
Love and War: Ivan & Mariana Polic's Tale of Courage and Healing
What if you could navigate the undercurrents of your family, business, and even your own self, to create harmony in all aspects of your life? Today, we invite you on an insightful journey with Ivan and Mariana Polic, founders of the Systemic Approach Institute, as we traverse the intriguing landscapes of the Systemic Field and family constellation. We share candid stories about the origins of their work, their lineage from Bert Hellinger, and the profound influence of Serbia's war history and local culture.
As we traverse through the journey of Ivan and Mariana Polic's life, we unearth their experience with family constellations and how it affected their lives. We unfurl their unique backgrounds, their previous healing practices, and how they've integrated systemic work into their business. We discuss the importance of mastering one's mind and emotions, and the role systemic work plays in understanding the meaning behind an individual's emotions and behavior.
We delve into the complexities of belonging to multiple worlds, the challenge of compartmentalization, and the recognition of the 'boogeyman' that each system houses. We explore how the language of systemic work can be made common and simple, while still holding its depth and power. Finally, we recount the touching story of how Ivan and Mariana met amidst the chaos of war, their journey to the U.S., and their unwavering courage and strength. Join us for this enlightening conversation, and take a step further in understanding the intricacies of systemic work and the profound impact it can have on your life.
Lauren & Frank explore esotericism, intuition, psychic growth, healing, and bad jokes.
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
Today on the Zoom OnePodcast, we have a special treat Founders of the Systemic Approach Institute, explorers of the Systemic Field, business Mastery Experts, ivan and Mariana Pollock this is a real special episode Ice Cream Healing in your Belinda, california. The incredible, dynamic duo of healing, ivan Pollock and Mariana Pollock. Thank you guys for having me in your home. Very much appreciate it. How are you guys doing?
Speaker 2:You're very welcome and that was a heck of an opening, my friend. I really enjoyed that and, yeah, it's a pleasure to have you with us and I look forward to what the world wants to emerge today.
Speaker 3:We're so happy to have you here with us. You're not lying when you're saying ice cream. I was just looking at those two, three actually.
Speaker 2:The night is young.
Speaker 3:I already had my ice cream.
Speaker 1:So today's been a kind of packed day of healing and change and dynamics and we experienced a, I would say, another step in the evolution of what family consolation brings, a modality that I hadn't experienced before, a version of a modality that I love, and I've seen your work over the years the first time that we met was in 2018 in Miami Is that?
Speaker 2:right, yes, 18 fall of 18.
Speaker 1:So pre pandemic, pre a lot of change in the world and you know, I very much appreciated the modality, that, the way that you conducted my, my consolation, because it was quiet and it was completely blind, so the interference and static of the process was minimal. So tell me a little bit about how you guys came up with that.
Speaker 2:This is the biggest influence on this type of facilitation was a lot of the village from Serbia. We originally from Serbia, so a lot of was a huge influence. Our constellation journey from from the very beginning we eventually hosted, hosted him for seven years in LA, building a community here and doing training and very deep healing. He's very unique, unique facilitator of really going deep into silence and very deep moments of the soul and spirit and his style is very minimalistic and we we adopted a lot of, the lot of those things after so many years.
Speaker 2:So for what you experienced today the biggest influence and we're in the lineage of Lado village was indirect, direct lineage of Bert Hellinger. So he is one of the early, early students of Bert. After the war in former Yugoslavia he he hosted and work with Bert Hellinger very closely on kind of reconciliation and healing in that part of the world. They hosted several peace congresses in the kind of post war days. So we're very, very lucky and blessed to be in that kind of lineage of that kind of view, perspective and philosophy of what, what the work is and how it's, how it's best stewarded facility. So I hope that you will have some opportunity to experience Lado's work at some point somewhere in the world, and that's the biggest influence on what you experienced today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would imagine that there's so much chaos and the theme of war that silence may be the best counterweight to it.
Speaker 2:The heritage and inheritance of Serbia and Serbs. We were positioned in that very strategic kind of crossroads of the east and west Europe where, you know, we were on the crossroads of the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire and those two empires fought over our backs for 500 plus years. So we have a lot of history of many dominating aggressors coming through our land and so that's kind of those are probably the roots of the civil war that just happened a couple decades ago. It was hugely disruptive in our lives and in our country and all of that. So Lado has been working for 20 years now on this kind of reconciliation and healing. He started working right after the war and he met Bert Hullinger and he felt that this was the way, this was the path of reconciliation for our people, for that part of the world, and that's kind of the history of that.
Speaker 1:I mean those are complex themes that have many generations of trauma that are boiled down to the present dynamic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, and we're here today as a war in Israel is just again slared up and we were, yugoslavia was a multicultural, multilingual, small country, so we had three different major religions, three different types of people with multiple different territories and the echoes of the past conflicts there were many, many generations were involved in that just sparked up and reignited again and we're now healing again after it. So that's kind of the history and probably has a huge I mean indirectly has a huge influence on how we work and how Lado worked, how he works, and how much it influenced us. You speak about silence. Yeah, with that, with large and strong energies like that that are involved, you want to give them maximum expression and if there's a lot of dialogue and mental chatter, you don't kind of snuff out the space for the deeper, deeper expression and a deeper movement. So that's the reason for this kind of silent mainly silent and minimalistic, allowing for the field to really reveal what is happening on a people level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that when I was reading. You know the systemic organizational leadership, that MA, you know the Japanese word for MA. I just took, I read the book and that just that concept, the space that wants to be filled and how much integrity you have to have as a facilitator not to fill it with your own crap.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. I mean that's having the discernment to be present and without an agenda, so beginner's mind, no mind, allowing for maximum space and allowing for all, all energies and all expressions to be to be included.
Speaker 1:Yeah that being the empty vessel of a facility facilitation is. You know you really got to be ready for it. It's not something that you know. I would encourage anybody to jump in too lightly because of the responsibility and the integrity that it takes to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not something casual and at the same time, representing a lot in these deeper spaces is the most helpful thing, because you can pick up the pick up the felt sense. You can pick up facilitation like a virus.
Speaker 1:Yes, tell me more about that. So you literally let me get some ice cream.
Speaker 2:So the Western education system wants to build a step by step process that is linear, and first you do this, then you do this, and then you do that, and he has its usefulness. I think what we're dealing with here is something something different and a lot more emergent, and, step by step, is something that you would, you can pick up cognitively, but the no mind, you pick up as a virus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you pick up along the way.
Speaker 2:You. Actually, if you can relax enough into surrendering control, then you can get yourself there. So different kinds of trainings are helpful for this. Being around someone who is, who has that level of integrity, someone who has developed that being around them and in their process is really helpful. So apprenticing with someone who has the virus will increase your chances of picking it up.
Speaker 3:Proximity.
Speaker 1:Proximity. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like a tribal education.
Speaker 2:It's very experiential. Yeah, so experiential learning is about the felt sense of the process and the experience. It's not. It doesn't come through the mind, it comes through the body.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's emergent.
Speaker 2:So your body picks up the virus. Your mind is a passenger on that process.
Speaker 1:So you feel it before you know it.
Speaker 2:You feel it, and then you feel it again, and then you feel it again, and then you start to realize that, oh, I know this, I just know this, my body knows this, my awareness recognizes this, and it's not from the mind, it's literally from the body, from the felt sense. And so this is very interesting conversation. We're getting into this. But yeah, that's very. I didn't have the language for this, so I got the virus first, then I got more experience and eventually I have some language for this, but the language came last.
Speaker 1:We're late to that.
Speaker 2:A lot of times people, when they come into this work, they want the language first. But the language first is not the virus. The language comes out after you've already been infected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I equate it more to dancing. It's more like you know when you're dancing and you know when you're not, and you know when you're talking about dancing but you're not really dancing. You have to dance and feel the music and feel the ebb and flow of the field and where that is and where it takes you and has a momentum and has a give and take to it that you can only experience, like the waves coming in and out.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful. I like that. I never heard that. It's very, very beautiful.
Speaker 1:I just made it up.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful. I like it. It's similar to swimming. Actually, you can talk about being wet. Yeah, yeah. But actually being wet is a completely different experience. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So one of the things that happened to me after COVID and started doing the groups again was like were all these years just bullshit? You know, like is it still there? And then you get in a group and you connect to it again and it's like this damn thing is just still there. You know, like does that make sense what I'm saying? It's like I want to intellectually not believe in it Because I'm technical and my mind gets in the way of it. And then it's like nope, just like a hammer, if you go out and put your hand out to grab this intuition, it's there, whether you believe in it or not. Hmm.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:what I'm saying. I think that's a total sense. Yeah, very, very much resonates. And when I first experienced the work, I had a very deep experience. I thought I think I spoke about it last time. We spoke on the podcast here, but I wanted to. I really tried hard to talk myself out of it. Yeah. But I couldn't. I didn't want to investigate further, but I tried quite hard. Sometimes this kind of skepticism can be helpful. Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you allow further investigation. So if you keep investigating it can be helpful. But if you stop investigating you may be prematurely stifling possibility.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like taking the off ramp before the real healing happens. Yeah, you can talk yourself out of it very quickly. I mean you literally see in consolation somebody get to the door and be like nope, turn around and leave. You know, because the loyalty is so strong.
Speaker 3:Yeah, also the speed at which the healing happens and the results, sort of speak, that we see, it doesn't take well, in some cases it takes relatively short and we, until we see some kind of a transformation and something, the movement happened and we can see it and we can feel it, but a lot of times it doesn't. It takes days, weeks, even months before we actually and the movement happens and there's a result. And we even forgot yeah, we did a consolation on it yeah.
Speaker 3:And today's day of convenience and speed and availability of everything and appeal for everything and meaning for everything, it's very humbling to have to wait, to have to embrace the slowness of the movement while you're in the field and then, once you leave the room of consolation, I mean we're in the field all the time, yeah, but having that patience and awareness and you know it will come, and as long as I keep working and as long as I honor what it was shown in the field to me because that's another thing on top of the speed of results, it's also that feeling of well, I had a theme, I had a challenge, I did a consolation on it, I saw what happens, I'm good, I can just go on with my life, whereas it's not that simple.
Speaker 3:If you are most specifically, let's say, health, you know you have a challenge and you come in and you do a consolation on it and then, if you continue the same rhythm of your life and the same patterns and the same habits, no amount of consolations are going to help you detangle and resolve your issue. Yeah, because we have to participate in our own rescue. Yeah, if you will. I think I heard Ivan say that a long time ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to participate in your own rescue, that's a great line, yeah, yeah. And then you know, there's so many consolations that you've that one scene that somebody's presented with a choice and they just simply don't make it. And that's okay too, you know, and not, you know, as a facilitator or somebody representing, to force that choice towards what you believe to be the best thing for that person, because then you're in for a world of hurt.
Speaker 3:Right. Well, that's where checking in with yourself comes in handy. Yeah, Because we ultimately know the truth. Yeah, and we ultimately interpreted the way we see it fit. Yeah, and once we check in, it's a no, it's a no.
Speaker 1:It's a no. If it's a no or a hell of a yes, Hell yes. Hell yes. So what was your first? I mean, we've talked about Ivan's first experience in consolations and what that went in and it's very similar to mine, so it resonates at a deep level. You know, I was like my parents and my sister and my mom are in a cult and I've talked about this many times, but what was your first experience like in this work?
Speaker 3:Well, the very first experience was Ivan getting, I believe, 11 books and reading them all in a few weeks, because he's very methodical. Once he, you know, wants to try out something and wants to learn more and investigate, he does that. So I read a couple of books and he said you have to go and try. So actually it was. It wasn't the same facilitator that Ivan saw, but he was a very close friend of hers and that same facilitator was there too. So I went and it was. I mean, I'm I don't shy away from experiences, weird experiences and so he wasn't, you know. Wow, I'm apprehensive and I'm anxious about going in.
Speaker 3:I went in quite open and it was a great experience in terms of seeing something be revealed to me that I was worried about, which was because, you know, I immigrated here. Ivan and I came here together Well, he came here before me, but then we came back together and I'm an only child and I kind of left my parents and I always, even though I got to see them, you know, once or twice a year, I always had that kind of feeling but are they really okay, you know, with me leaving? And so in the presenting constellation it wasn't related to them, it was related to me and my growth and development and one, obviously, she put in both parents and throughout the whole constellation they were hand in hand and smiling and very happy and looking on.
Speaker 3:What a gift, and that was the integration of the parents, and then there was integration of the home country and the new home country. So it was just absolutely a beautiful experience and I was like, yeah, this is it gave me so much peace. I don't think ever, ever since that constellation, I don't think I I got the same worry that I had before.
Speaker 3:So, that was a huge confirmation and so, yeah, that was my first experience, and then it was beautiful. And then the second experience was kind of scary, because I was representing for somebody's sister who was disabled, so I literally could not feel parts of my body, and so nobody prepares you for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nobody prepares you for that.
Speaker 3:You are actually going to feel it really really deeply. So I felt that and then I kind of paste myself and I said you're okay, you're just into the energy of this person, you are serving her, you are serving her family. Just do your best. And that's how I kind of paste myself and come myself. There are certainly experiences on both spectrum, I want to say, you know, and absolutely amazing and kind of terrifying, but that was knowing how to, I guess, embrace it all, come in your way and just keep remembering that you are in service of the field and of that client and of that family at that moment and just be grateful that you get to do so.
Speaker 1:So you know, I know somebody just doesn't jump into constellations as their first, you know, foray into healing right they start meditation or yoga or something. So what were some of the things that you had done or that you guys had done before this work?
Speaker 3:Well, it was mostly mind related. You know, mind and emotions. We went through a Tony Robbins training. We became trainers with the organization, and it was an amazing period of our lives when we needed that as individuals, as parents and also as business owners. Everything that we've learned we brought back to the business and shared it with our team. We even sent some of them to our seminars because we understood that it's actually very important to master your mind and your emotions.
Speaker 3:And when I say master, I see it in a really good way, not a positive way, but there was always something like yearning for more, you know, yes, well, and even though the program mentioned spirituality here and there, there is no specific way of embracing that and getting in touch with it.
Speaker 3:And so we always wanted more. And, you know, in between we kind of explored different things. And that's when the constellation work in the family, family constellations and systemic work, you know, got introduced to Ivan first and then to me, and that was just that's where the true journey of transformation, I feel like, began, because we get to dive really, really deep and see what's behind the mind, what's behind the emotion, what's the. That's just what the meaning is, what is the true, deep, centuries ago cause that happens somewhere in the lineage that is written in our DNA. So there were multiple other programs, you know, and different mentors and different things that we've learned and it was really helpful for our development and I think this we were the most consistent in systemic work for us as individuals and then healing our relationship with our parents and then introduces our sons to it and then also some of the employees embraced it as well, really.
Speaker 3:Yes, we actually had a Vlado the facilitator. We hosted him at our work and some of our employees came to an event as well. Wow, and so you know what we're enjoying and what we see really helpful. We want to, you know, spread the word, and I think this was the most consistent one, where we found a way, also through teachings of other you know mentors like Jan Jakob Stam, cecilia Oregó, how to get it to the business world and our company, and you know, use that lens.
Speaker 1:So what's the? Has there been resistance from like when you introduce this into the business world of woo woo, versus it? Because this is the reality. You guys on the business side, numbers, business management are so strong, you know it's like when we're in a group that's mainly focused on the business and it's numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, processes. What are we fixing? What are the top priorities issues? Right, let's get, you know, very much into the numbers. Trying to figure out the north of the business and systemic work is a, you know, small percentage of that. I mean, I think it informs the decisions, but mainly hard finance. You know business acumen. To me it's. I want the world to merge, you know, obviously. But what's the resistance that? Have you guys felt resistance between one and the other and like, don't bring that, that woo woo crap into? You know the business world type.
Speaker 2:You know, to put it colloquially, yeah, it's a, it's a matter of a level of consciousness. So some people are more open than others and there there are ways to, and Jacob's Tom probably is one of the best of merging those worlds and also creating an invitation for people who have never heard of constellations and speaking in very common sense language about what is systemic work, and that they already know systemic work, that systemic work is already within them, that it's hardwired into the nervous system. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Nature of life is systemic. It's system within a system within a system. That's what, literally, the fabric of the universe is built on. So people even then never heard of the work. They are human and they have the pre. They have the pre knowledge already within them. Our job is not to teach them. Our job is to remind them that they already know this. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so so, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of the a lot of the difficulty around that is where do you belong? Where is your loyalty? Are you, would you allow yourself to belong in both places?
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:And so are you. Are you loyal to the systemic system, to the constellation system, to the? Because there is a codex of behavior and belief and philosophy and point of view that the systemic world is loyal to. And then there is the point of view and philosophy and all of that same stuff on the business side and the practical side, and so both are very useful. And could you allow yourself to belong in both worlds? And because you do Like you belong, like you are a consumer, you are maybe a producer, you know if you're living, you're producing something for to be exchanged, for your livelihood or whatever it is you're doing in life, so you are already a part of it.
Speaker 2:But then we create this kind of artificial. I'm not sure that I like that. I like this more. So I'm going to include this more, but I'm going to exclude that a little bit. And so if you can allow yourself to belong and then if you can open, open more to all parts of life, then you can be more whole rather than compartmentalized. And you know, these different worlds have they each have a boogeyman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, they each have a boogeyman. Yes, so, that's a great way to put it.
Speaker 2:So they're actually systemic enthusiast, constellation enthusiast. Yeah, put their boogeyman in the business world.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they actually projected, projected over there. Yeah. And then there are business people who will project their boogeyman in the world. I've never said that this way before, but yeah, like things we don't want to face. Yes. We put in that other world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. From the from the systemic side is be like I don't want to do with my emotions. From the you know, constellation side is like I don't want to deal with authority. Yeah, it's basically right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so authorities, one perpetrators and another.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Perpetrator victim perpetrator yeah.
Speaker 2:So a lot of, a lot of those, many of those dynamics have the live in the world of opposites. Yes, so what is your capacity to allow for the opposites? The higher your capacity to allow for that, the less, the less hijacking happens, because if you allow it and you include it, it doesn't have to include it self over the top of you. Yeah, and systems want to be whole and they want to be. They want system survival mechanism of systems, as the second survival mechanism that Bert Ellinger gave us in his, in his legacy, is that systems want to be whole and they want to reveal everything that is trying to be hidden by individuals. So one of the examples is that you know, you hear about these politicians that maybe they crusaded for 40 years against drugs and prostitution and then, lo and behold, you turn on the news and that model citizen that was picketing for that, whatever their cause was, ended up on drugs in the in a place you know are taking prostitution and creating a huge scandal.
Speaker 2:And then you're wondering, like how does that make sense? Like what is up? With that. And what is up with that is that what you deny and resist verbally and publicly tends to come in through the back door and include itself. You literally get hijacked by the system because the system wants to show the truth, wants to include the the side of things that you are rejecting.
Speaker 1:So it's a funny way of balancing things out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if they're, you know, and this comes out, comes around across all kinds of dimensions, in the business world, in the healing world, in all kinds of worlds, whatever you are avoiding is running underneath the surface.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was a saying that just that I just read that says the magic of what you're looking for is hidden and what you were trying to avoid. Correct, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And also the. The concept of looking at businesses and companies in an alternative way let's say I'm telling it to numbers or any other indicators is the old way of old school of doing business is relatively new, if you think about it. Only maybe a couple of decades ago we started talking about purpose and culture and needs of the employees and you know all these and because if you, if you look at it before, when there was a problem, you looked at it through numbers, not through under my numbers. They're still very, very powerful, but they're also affected by the other, these other things that are human produced and human related. So you either throw money at the problem or you take the, take it away, cut it out, whereas there are different dynamics that we don't see, the invisibles that are affecting everything that is in business. So even now you know you would do an exercise in the company that is related to team and purpose and and you still have people saying, huh, why do we have to do this? Can I just go back to work.
Speaker 3:And then let along going even deeper to, to find the cause.
Speaker 3:So what we us, we do know, about systemic work and all the other modalities. We just need to be persistent and make the language common and simple enough so that we do speak about those factors that are invisible the dynamics and the patterns. It's not being, it's not threatening to the business owner or their team. It's not undermining what they've done. It is also not undermining you as an advisor or a facilitator who's coming in, because that that's what happens.
Speaker 3:You know that that's where the business that I feel like the biggest resistance is not like get away from me, I don't believe in that, it's more kind of like sitting there and smirking and just you know, in the whole negative aura and that will be the biggest resistance. But it if we continue. Because if you think about it and we discussed it a couple of times at work with um in our previous company if you look at one company, especially if it was founded by an immigrant, we counted once and it was close to 50 systems, 50 FIVOS systems in place, working and having to be acknowledged in our company. So you're talking about the country of origin, the economics, the politics, the war, the this and that and the other.
Speaker 1:So for people that don't know, what can you tell? Talk a little bit about the company.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm, I'm going to give you that story, and you asked the previous question, which was about what is the resistance? The world is addicted to certainty, and business world is addicted to certainty even more, and so if you are, if you're coming in as a, as the unknown element, the, the people in control, are going to resist the unknown. So you, you need to make it as safe as possible to engage in some exploration, and the, the, the recent language that we're using, is where we are the explorers of natural occurring phenomenon that are happening in your organization, in organizations in general, and so the naturally occurring things. We are going to explore the nature of your organization, explore the nature of the market that you're in so that you can have a more intimate relationship without the natural order of your marketplace actually operates. And if you can have a more intimate, closer relationship with the reality of how it is, you become an agent of evolution and progress within the environment. And the more in touch with reality of how it actually is, the more co-creative you can be with it, and the less, the more out of touch you are with how it is, or you're denying things, or you're trying to just be in the certainty of it, the less in touch and the less less influential you can be. And so with that kind of uh language you can, people will be interested in being in touch more with the reality of how it is underneath the surface. They're not, they don't, they don't usually look there, and so if you give them a chance to look there, they can get, they can get self informed. And if it's about them exploring, they will be a lot more open. And if you, if it's about you telling yes, so you give them their experience and you give them their autonomy and you give them their choice and you leave the rest with them. So that's that's what I would say about that and what we did in terms of our business. We ran an aerospace manufacturing company and we we made parts for commercial airplanes and military applications, high precision metal housing parts for electrical connectors and fluid transfer parts, and it was a. It was a 35 year old business, a legacy business, and it was a very demanding environment and very, very pressure filled environment. We made parts 24, seven for many, many years, and so that was a.
Speaker 2:Once we got involved in systemic work.
Speaker 2:That was kind of like a laboratory and part of the reason why we got in it so deep is that we had a lot of dynamics or we didn't know what to do with it, and systemic work was what enabled us to completely turn, get more in touch with reality, get more in touch with the reality of our people and the organization as a whole and gradually co-create with them a much healthier environment and a much more progressive environment where people could grow and the organization could grow, and eventually we freed ourselves up, we empowered the organization and the team to to overtake and take, take responsibility and ownership of the process and all the results and all of these things.
Speaker 2:And then eventually, once, once the team was running things, eventually we decided to sell all together because we felt like this part of the journey is complete. We felt like this is. We played our part in this process, in this, in this arena, and it's time for us to share some of the things that we discovered in the, in the laboratory, about 10 years, 10 years of learning, systemic work, learning systemic principles, getting the felt sense of how things are what they are, recognizing things from the circle, the sacred circle, and seeing some of those things, getting the same similar felt sense in the business side. It was a huge integration and for many years I would tell myself dude, you are weird, you're strange.
Speaker 2:We would do Saturday and Saturday and Sunday, deep ancestral healing, the love dripping off the walls and incredible depth and silence and sacredness. On Monday I would I would meet with a representative for Boeing and he would be a. It would be quite a different conversation. So somehow over our journey we were always kind of like the integrative people. Our early experience of constellations even is illustrated with this, because we have Vlado as a, as a kind of a mentor teacher who doesn't speak at all, and then we had Gary Stewart, who was present here in LA at that time. He was very, very influential and he doesn't ever close his mouth during the during the constellation. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Somehow I was learning from both of these people and I had to, I had to allow for the, for the genius of both, and so, similarly, you know the business world and the constellation world. That was a similar kind of dichotomy and somehow it's just always putting me in that kind of stretch, stretch zone between worlds. And, yeah, we're, we're, we're still, we're still doing it and we're finding a way to introduce systemic work into the world without it being threatening and without it being strange and with with it being natural and a kind of a natural logists, natural logists approach. We are studying nature and we are exploring nature and we're exploring our nature and we're exploring the nature around us. We're exploring our inner nature and we're exploring our organizational nature and marketplace nature, and so, in that sense, we're trying to trying to make it more digestible and we made a decision that we will we will proactively and intentionally speak to the nonconverted. Okay.
Speaker 2:The nonconverted meaning that people who haven't ever heard of it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we did a whole big all, all day, every day, during the pandemic. Yeah, yeah 200 hours of original content challenges courses. It was incredible and at the end of that we felt like we were. We were jamming out with the choir in church and it was incredibly beautiful and we realized, like you know, we're seeing the same same faces in here. It's great, we love it. It's a community, is warm, and we felt like we need to go out into the community To continue to expand, expand the choir, if you would yeah and so that's, that's kind of part of the part of the decision that we made.
Speaker 2:We ended up selling the selling the aerospace business at the beginning of last year and then, yeah, we're, we're still Still in the process of Emptying, emptying the 20 years of Aerospace stress and aerospace patterns and those are big systems those are huge systems and we were very involved and it was Lots, a lots of different dynamics that we were dealing with and so we wanted to empty out of those before we actually really Made a bigger, a bigger play in the direction of the systemic approach Institute and we're just starting to do more and more of those things. And during that kind of emptying I I Got into deeper meditation and the past and our meditation and the silence meditation and silence retreat. So in the, what is it now about?
Speaker 2:In the last 15 months I think I've been in silence for about Three to four months Of complete silence, the noble kind of silence where there's no, there's no interaction. Oh, my god, at all is this you and you and the and the inner, inner exploration? So I feel like that has given me a whole new lens. That is really, really. It is giving me language also and even deeper sense of the systemic work from that experience, because there is a particular kind of body of Work and the past and a type of meditation called the nine bodies of consciousness, in which you actually explore the nine different Dimensions of consciousness. And when we're in the field and constellation work and stomach work, those all blend they blend in life anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah but these, not these explorations of the, these nine dimensions Is giving me really a more, more felt sense and more precision around what, where, where are we exploring, what is showing up, what is happening.
Speaker 2:So, if you, if you put yourself in a space where you're listening for this, for so a lot in silence, your, your sensitivity gets refined Around that. So, you, it's been really very, very healing and very Emptying and and it feels like another, like you know, during those times when I was on a Sunday facilitating in a Monday meeting with with Boeing, I was wondering, I was like, dude, you seems like you're being cooked in a slow cooker For some reason. I can't pinpoint what the reason is and it feels like that now as well, like the more silence I go into and the more Emptying am I, I'm doing it feels like another, like, oh, you're being prepared again for something really, and you know, my, my sense is that I almost feels like I need to download something, but in order to download it, I need to be really, really quiet again to clear the hard drive.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Prepare the, prepare the car driver, empty the hard drive to be able to.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:So then yeah, and then also not only receive it, but actually be able to show you that Not only receive it but actually be able to share it, which means one foot in both of those worlds again, the integrative bridging, the Meeting, the meeting of the world. So that's, that's just a little bit of our, of our current journey, and this, actually, next Sunday we're doing a mini reunion, or the all day, every day, systemic work, all day, every day. That was our kind of During the pandemic, a huge explosion of creativity and you know we gathered a kind of global, global community. It was, it was beautiful, jamming out choir. So we're actually doing a three-year. Your reunion on October 15th oh, noon is gonna be a three hour, a jam fest, and we actually pulled the community on. What would they like to see and the big the most votes was gotten by Everyone wanting to explore Sacred relationships okay and how we can have love and freedom With our parents, partners and children.
Speaker 2:And so the love and freedom, the tall order.
Speaker 2:It kind of rubs up against the, against the loyalty and and and all of these things and. But ultimately, true love is free and freedom is loving and so, if we can, that whole reunion is gonna be a like a deep exploration, very experiential. How much love do you dare Allow? And then, how much freedom do you dare take Simultaneously in your sacred relationships, and how you can honor, honor people's destinies, even if they're part of your sacred relationships? They're the hardest, hardest one, or especially when they're when they're when they're working against themselves in some way, and you have to let them. They're hurting themselves and you have to let them, you must let them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and that's that's. We call that the honoring of their destiny. Yeah, it's their destiny, and Taking away somebody's pain May not be the most helpful thing for them, because they are here, maybe, to experience that pain, and a certain amount of it, yeah, is required for their, for the fuel of their next evolution, and if you, if you decrease the pain for them, they're not gonna have enough fuel. Yeah. So you gotta be really really sensitive or not not meddling, and you can open the door, but you cannot be pushing people through it.
Speaker 1:So tell me a little bit about loyalty. What is it in the systemic? Context.
Speaker 2:Interesting. I never answered it this way, but it it's. It's a young form of love, oh, like an immature form of love.
Speaker 1:It's a it's a young.
Speaker 2:Idealistic. It's a young, idealistic naive. I will be on your side. That will be my show of love, wow that's big. I never said that like that before, so and that's a huge, huge part of what we're gonna explore on Sunday. Hmm, that. Piece about taking a side. That is, when you take a side, you Literally limit yourself and you take away Half of reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you limit yourself from experiencing the whole.
Speaker 2:Correct. So you literally are Advocating for Partial experience of life.
Speaker 1:Wow, geez man Getting deep on a Sunday.
Speaker 2:I think we better have some ice cream.
Speaker 1:You know, I just I have this, this thought and in some way that you know, loyalty is one of the strongest forces on the planet. That loyalty will provide In adherence to something that does not have logic Right, that will adhere even if it costs us our lives. Out of loyalty, we will sacrifice everything and that young love is extremely dangerous. You know, that's the. I Think that in some capacity, the amplification of our disorders right now are based on that loyalty and based on that unresolved trauma that's pushing us towards the system kind of completely going into chaos.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Thomas, who will, has done a lot of work around the collective trauma and there is a pile up on all of unresolved trauma yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so the trauma is like a dam of it piling up, yeah, the unprocessed, unfelt, undigested, unmetabolized under the surface, and the pile up is epic, yeah, and then, because it's so much and so well, mean that people don't know how to deal with it and so they run, they run away from it into their phones and their distractions and their comforts, and they do that there's, there's further piling, yeah, so there's further unresolved trauma debt Community compounding compounding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, correct, compound. So that that happens at the national level. Yeah, it happens at the marketplace level, it happens at the organizational level, it happens at the family level. Yeah, happens at all these levels happens at the national level.
Speaker 1:Evolutionary force.
Speaker 2:Yes, so across all these Russian dolls of systems.
Speaker 1:Russian dolls of systems.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's permeating all of it, and sometimes the largest systems are showing up in our field, in our lives, like the larger disturbances, the the piled up trauma Shows up in our living room. Yeah and it's it's collective trauma showing up on our individual and family lives and sometimes we Identify with it. We, we personalize the impersonal. Yeah and so then, then we're we are misidentifying the cause and Adding to our problems. Yeah, yeah not like we don't have enough. Yeah, we are just. You know, we are hoarding systemic trauma.
Speaker 1:There's a saying that I love is like when logic is not present, entanglement to unresolved trauma is it's like if you identify as a victim, you always find a perpetrator and just like, like you said, hoarding unresolved trauma and you just, you know, like I didn't get enough, and then you just, you're just piling on and hoarding and grabbing as much as you can for it. It's no way to live.
Speaker 2:It's tough. So you know the first aid that we have come up for ourselves. It's, it's interesting the healthier your nervous system, the more potential for hijacking there is.
Speaker 2:So the healthier that your your nervous system, the more potential for hijacking correct, because really the pile up of trauma is looking for For a nervous system to process it. So if you are walking around as a healthy nervous system, you are a target for all kinds of energy that wants to, wants to, wants to get a body to process through it. And so the first aid that we've come up with, just Organically here in the family and this happens multiple times a day it would look at, look, each look at each other, especially when, like, unexplained anxiety shows up or Fear of some kind, or anger Come in or whatever it is. Many times we just look at each other and we say, if we remember to ask ourselves, we ask is this mine?
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's a powerful question is a sim, it's a very simple question, but it's very sneakily powerful and if we can ask it ourselves.
Speaker 2:It's awakening in the moment because even to just ask that question, you, you had to be present. You had to be present to remember to ask and you had to be present. Oh, you had to be present to remember to ask. And if you did remember to ask, that means that part of you was present and aware that this is not mine and I could ask the question to remind myself. It's when I get. Most of the time it's not mine. Yeah, so when you get the answer no, this is not mine, you have more elbow room to operate because you're not personalizing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can, just let it, let it go, you can, you can yeah you can release it.
Speaker 2:You can, you can allow it to go through you rather than getting stuck on it. We had getting it stuck on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah and when we don't remember because this is a daily occurrence we we ask, we ask each other a is that yours? So it's kind of like having a great partner like Like I do is is such a luxury of Having someone, someone else, put it on record To remind you when you, when you get hijacked to, to remember that you know, to know what is what and what is yours. And I Want to say one more thing Many times, the healthiest thing to do would be not to deal with it. So I got to deal with that. That's a big thing in the world I, I need to deal with that. Okay, and so if you hijack by a larger system, you may or may not need to deal with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah he may not be dealable. Yeah he might be the healthiest thing to just Acknowledge it and let it pass through yeah rather than dealing with it and dealing with it might actually be. You deal with fleas, you you catch him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, or you know, make your bed. Correct you know you'd be like okay, I can't deal with the meteor that's hurt hurtling towards the planet, but I can make sure that my kids are healthy and I can, you know, tend to my house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the, that's the, that's the piece that that came to us when we were doing a lot of teaching. How can we be a healthy cell in the body of humanity? Yeah and Healthy cells are local.
Speaker 1:Yes, healthy cells are local. Yeah, and healthy cells build momentum.
Speaker 2:Yes, and healthy cells are good neighbors yeah, and they're good Exchangers of love and energy yeah, in their immediate environment, yeah. So you don't? You don't see a liver cell traveling to the heart? Nope.
Speaker 1:Yeah, liver cells, do liver cells stuff yeah and so that's.
Speaker 2:That's kind of yeah, there, there may be a lot of things that it's not ours to deal with yeah and if we could be healthier more locally, we can then radiate out and Overflow with our goodness, yeah, in a healthy way, yeah, that that can be actually more influential than grappling grappling with what is an hour.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when things are weak and not control.
Speaker 2:Yes, if you if you wrestle a 500 pound gorilla. Yeah yeah, I think you're just Resigning to a lot of pain. Yeah and it's. It's kind of a pain with no, no payoff. Yeah at all so yeah. That's.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of meandering if we just so tell me a little bit. I love your explanation about systems you know, I've used that a million times and the individual consciousness, the consciousness of the, of the group, and then the evolutionary force.
Speaker 2:So this is a, this is a legacy that was left by by bird howling her to us. This is something that we learned from young yakuza, and this is what young yakuza shared in. What were the two legacies that bird howling her left us? And so the one legacy that he has left us, upon which constellation modality sits Directly, is the whole thing of Representative perception. Okay, so he, somehow, he, he recognized that, he observed it, he, in a phenomenological way, he kept up, he kept rubbing up against it and he actually, in a felt sense, did a, made it known to himself that we can connect to Inner parts of us, and then we can connect with each other, that we can represent inner parts of each other, and so Externalizing how in a world became possible to representative perception, so representatives, using their perception, could tune into different aspects of our inner worlds, and then we can observe that and we can have it inform us, so that what became possible is that we could, we could see our inner worlds in three dimensions in front of us.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That previously was not something that was possible. So that's, that's the big legacy of bird howling her that he has left us. And then Principles of systemic work Are the other legacy. That so, out of the 40 years of exploration, in a phenomenological way showing up to the moment fresh, over and over Beginners mind, no mind, coming into the awareness of space and time, and I Felt sense. Over and over he started to notice patterns and he started to notice Principles that underlined behavior and relating humans in human systems, family systems, and then, over time, he was able to Name these principles. And then, when, when one facilitates, is following the principles in with the representative perception, and then Constellation process comes alive. It comes very, very informed and Principles by themselves can be applied outside of the constellation environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely and so you don't have to have a constellation to do systemic work and Our whole you know pandemic thing that when we did it online, we did something called the systemic work all day, every day. How can you, how can you do systemic work, how can you bring in, bring the sacredness of the circle to your daily life, bring it into your living room, into your lively, into your parenting, into your, into your whole life, into your career, business, whatever you might have? So that was a huge thing for us and it's still. It's still a very huge thing. Why, why do we decide to do that? We decided to do that because Going in the sacred circle Once every couple weeks or longer just felt inadequate, like it felt not enough, like like we got.
Speaker 2:We got these Big things we're dealing with in regular life that we needed more like, we needed more experience, we needed and we were longing. I was longing for that kind of depth and sacredness, not just every few weeks, but every day, and and so that's the reason why we did that. So circle back to the principles. Fairhalinger called out multiple, multiple principles of systemic work, and one of those big pieces that he left us as a legacy was the three survival mechanisms and, interestingly enough, the the first survival mechanism is the survival of the individual or the unit, and so when individuals are looking for to survive whatever Difficult dynamic or trauma they have faced, things that they were very overwhelming or shocking to their system and their nervous system, their individual being, how, how, what that Unit survival mechanism does is actually hides, hides things, conceals things in order to survive.
Speaker 2:Yeah so it if someone was Victimized in some way. There is a kind of very deep survival thing that I better hide this, because if I hide it my chances of survival are higher, rather than if I blow the whistle. If I blow the whistle on this it's even more danger for me, it's even more shocking and overwhelming. So let me just kind of encapsulate my own trauma and hide it so that I can survive and not be excluded from the group yes, so not take further, further danger, increase chances of more danger.
Speaker 2:And so that's what kind of that unit survival mechanism? Hides things. Then the second survival mechanism is the systemic survival of the whole system, system as a whole. And, interestingly enough, what this survival mechanism? He wants to include all, all parts of it, the things that were hide, hidden by the individuals. It wants to reveal. Yeah, it wants to include what has been kept secret, what has been hidden, what has been Covered over. Survival of the system demands it be included, and so then it, the system, blows the whistle on the individuals, and, and so you can notice how those two are operating Simultaneously. But they have completely different purposes. Yeah, and so that's you can. You can really understand why people hide stuff, and you can really understand the the nature of the revealing. Like, the more you're trying something to hide, somehow it leaks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah and it leaks because of that second survival mechanism. Yeah and finally, the third. Third survival mechanism is the evolutionary force and it Is responsible for destabilizing Systems that have been, that have reached its destiny. So, when the system gets in.
Speaker 1:That's hard to hear when the system gets ingrained and it's no longer.
Speaker 2:It's past its due date. Yeah so one way to look at this war that just started yesterday. There was a stagnant system. Yeah, that how they were dealing with the underlying conflict.
Speaker 2:That could no longer contain the things and the system needs to evolve, and the evolutionary force will disrupt systems in a very impersonal way, and so it won't care that it's a war, that it's a peace, that, whatever it takes. Okay, so COVID was an evolutionary force mechanism to destabilize the systems as they were, so it literally put the whole entire world on pause. It was a huge destabilizing force.
Speaker 1:Like a wildfire. Yes, evolutionary force Cleaning up the brush and the tender, and yeah. Correct, so now it doesn't care about the deer and the little squirrels and stuff. Just yeah, yeah, very impersonal, it doesn't care.
Speaker 2:And so it's very kind of. It could be very brutal, but it's required because those stagnant old systems that are past their due date, they will not. They will go on forever. Yeah. They will go on forever in a healthy way. And so the evolutionary force is like no, we are going to continue to evolve, and if we have to burn this thing down to do it, we will. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so all those three things operating simultaneously is what? What Bert Hellinger left. This is a legacy, so it's one of the deepest, deepest things that Bert Hellinger gave us. So I want to thank Jan Jakob Stam hugely for bringing this the way he does it and sharing this with with the world, and keeping the legacy legacy alive of this, because it's, I think, one of the lenses that we, as humanity, are going to need More and more, the bigger the chaos that we're going to be causing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's yeah, yeah, one of the things that I'm thinking is like you know how, for me it's always been like before I'm going to do a big movement, like life throws resistance right and so and we've talked about system, what system and community is, and you know the systems Propensity to stay the same right, and to me what's happening now seems like a systemic immunity for it to stay down the same path when we're on the cusp of some change, like monumental change at acknowledgement of this type of work.
Speaker 1:Maybe I'm crazy, maybe I'm in the matrix and I'm the you know, star of it and the video game or whatever you want to call it, but it just seems so odd that I'm in this weird position talking about this work in this context, and maybe it's a bias of like, my view, right Of like, but yeah, does this just happen to be that the world revolves around me? You know all those thoughts come in. But to really look at it from that, from that perspective, be like I'm looking at it from this lens, from the lens of this work, is like how, how do you guys wrestle with that responsibility? I guess?
Speaker 2:Um, you, you started to talk about. Systems want to be the same. They want to keep going, so the oil industry isn't going to disrupt itself. Yeah. They're very invested in continuing their current position. So evolutionary force and agents of change are going to be needing to disrupt this, and so our position is not to look for trouble. There is plenty of trouble locally. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so not to look for trouble elsewhere but focus here and now, locally, in our sphere of influence within our own selves, within our own family and our own work, and sphere of influence that we have and, uh, uh, we need, with a lot of humility, uh, that accepts the small amount of influence that we have as an individual, so actually embracing our ordinaring embracing our ordinaring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a big theme for the weekend, yeah.
Speaker 2:So how can we embrace the fact that we are, we are one human, and how can we co create with life In uh, in a wholesome manner, co create within the nature of a human life, um knowing that we operate in the impermanent universe. Yeah. And within an impermanent A life, so um. The law of impermanence means that everything rises and everything passes away. That includes us, and so um these large dynamics, uh, evolutionary force will disrupt them.
Speaker 1:Nobody, nobody gets out alive.
Speaker 2:Yes, None of us are getting out of here alive. So we only have so much quality time remaining. And within that quality time, how can we be the most present, how can we be the most available healthy cell For the overflowing goodness and health of the of the human species?
Speaker 1:So shifting gears a little bit and, if I can go get personal, how does um, how does this look in in your guys' relationship? It's like leading from systems and what that brings out in each other, like I've been. I've been married for a week. We're going to. We just celebrated our 12th year.
Speaker 3:Congratulations.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and you know more than anything. My kids have brought up, you know, a mirror and my spouse, my wife, has brought up the mirror. It's like how do you lead your marriage from a systemic lens?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, we have our 25th anniversary coming up in April. Congratulations, thank you. Thank you, april 28th April celebration.
Speaker 1:So I've I've heard it's a very special, interesting, creative recreative yeah.
Speaker 2:So we got married during the actual bombing of Yugoslavia. So literally a whole, a big old story for the grandchildren and like an epic epic quest of sorts. So I'm not sure we can tell that story right now, but maybe briefly. Um, I was playing professional soccer. Mariana was was a sports TV reporter for the local club that I was playing in. So that's how we met Little did?
Speaker 1:she know?
Speaker 2:It was a very fortunate thing because I gave an interview and that was I was, I was. That was what got me over the edge.
Speaker 1:Otherwise, you noticed by the, this was never going to happen.
Speaker 2:So a couple of smart words was what did it?
Speaker 1:and um what did he, what did he say that were like that, I mean, what were the like lying, closing, like, oh, this guy.
Speaker 3:Well, um, generally um soccer players, especially in Europe, they go um pro Very young Um. They kind of skip college and that kind of traditional education and just go in there and give it their all, and sometimes it's it's quite challenging to interview them in a wholesome way where they can kind of go from A to B and um no nuance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all in the goal. We went Right.
Speaker 3:Um. So I was always seek out the coach to interview after games and, um, he said, why do you always interview me? Like I got a guy for you? And I was like, okay, let's see the guy. And so he came over and I asked him a couple of questions and he answered that they were down one zero. And then in the halftime they consolidated their lines and then consolidated came out and um got a draw In a away game. That was very, very important, um, so that was the word.
Speaker 1:So your love language is competence.
Speaker 3:Yes, Cranios, actually, yeah, he was competent and he could um language it Good, good, yeah, so that's, that's the story.
Speaker 2:And um, so we were together and NATO decided to bomb Serbia because of, because of the cross of all issues and political, political things that happened there. So then NATO was started to bomb Serbia, start the bomb civilian targets as well as military targets. Obviously, soccer was suspended and we found ourselves on the farm with money on his parents out of the, trying to be out of the, out of the line of fire, and you know the we just okay, the bombing is going to blow over, they're going to get come to their senses. And and they were not coming to their senses. And so then they were starting to talk about ground troops and actual war.
Speaker 2:So my country of origin was being bombed by my adopted country of, uh, of America, and so we got ourselves in a crossfire there. And, uh, when they started talking about ground troops, I was like I don't think that I will be participating in this ground troop conflict, I don't think that this is where I am going to make my mark, and at that point I decided to try to get out of the country and come back to the States. And so we had to, we had to say, say good, say our goodbyes, because you know, mariana was going to stay with her parents and, uh, one night during the bombing, her mom after dinner she kind of hit the table a little bit and she said uh well, young man, um, what are your intentions with my daughter?
Speaker 4:I was like oh, so I tried to give the best answer that I could.
Speaker 2:The truthful answer was you know, my intentions are really really good. My intentions are really good, but I don't know that I'm. I don't know that, I don't think I'm ready, I don't think I'm ready to for the next, next step, or you know something like along those lines. Two, three days later, we decided to for me to return back to the States and wait out the craziness of the, of the conflict to stop, so that I can then come back. So then, anyway, I somehow find a way to get out of the country. That whole journey of getting out was scary Probably tell it another time but I ended up getting out somehow and then getting on a train and getting on a bus and eventually getting on a plane from Greece back to LA. And I was in LA and then we were talking every night Um, how's it going? How's everything? It was going to stop, it's going to stop.
Speaker 2:The actual bombing went for 70, 70 plus days, so somewhere like two weeks into me being in LA, I was like this is crazy. Oh, so we were on the phone talking one night, and it was the night the, the Manchester United, beat. Yeah and uh, you went to this is her team, and she was really sad that her team lost. So I was like, wow, you know, this is interesting. So, out of nowhere, a voice comes to me and says, what, you should ask her to marry you. And so I was like what? I mean, who's talking? I was talking to myself on the phone, talking to her, and I'm like you know, I, just two weeks ago, I told her mother I'm not ready. What are you talking about? I'm not, I'm not ready. Oh, go ahead, go ahead. Now's the time you should ask her right now. I'm like, oh man, I'm not ready. What are you talking about? Who's talking? What's happening?
Speaker 2:And so back and forth, back and forth, and something inside me breaks and I'm like you know what? I don't know if it's the right thing or not a right thing, but no matter what the price is, I'm going to do this and I'm ready to pay whatever the price is, cause I don't know if this is right or not. And so with that, I'm like I ask her would you marry me? And I can't believe it while I'm saying it, I can't believe it that I'm doing it. And so she says yes and I'm like, whoa, this is amazing.
Speaker 2:And so when she says yes, like my heart really kind of explodes, warms up in a huge way, so kind of gives me the confirmation or this is my, this might be okay, this might be good, so that all that heart opening and explosion kind of calms my brain in the moment of all that uncertainty. And so I tell my dad I'm going to get married and I'm going to go and get my girl and I'm going to. So I've got a bunch of small bills because I'm going to need small bills in Europe and I'm going to need to find my way around. And we get to. I arrange with her I'm going to wait for her at the border. I can't enter the country anymore because it's like war time, so I can no longer enter. So I have to wait for her at the border crossing and she has to meet me there and I'll be there at that time and so no cell phones.
Speaker 2:So Mariana will tell her side of this crazy story of how it went for to get her to the border.
Speaker 3:Well, once he asked me and I said, yes, I needed to tell my parents, and so I'm the only child and they are very strict. You don't make just huge decisions on your own. So even though I was 20 something years old obviously this is something you kind of have to run by people and they only met him several times but I think the way I said to them that my decision that it's going to happen is happening was so strong that they were left in a days a little bit, and my mom told me after my dad came back from dropping me off at the border crossing. She said we kind of sat down across from each other and we said what the hell did we just do? What the hell did we just agree to? We let her go with the guy across the ocean.
Speaker 1:It's just like a Hollywood story. It's like a beautiful love story. It's incredible.
Speaker 3:So, anyways, my dad drove me and then I saw Ivan on the other side and I got my little suitcase and I said goodbye to him and I'm walking towards Ivan and it was a heartbreaking and heartwarming experience, in a way that I'm leaving, I'm leaving and I'm heartbroken for the ones that I'm leaving, but then I'm also so madly in love and I'm walking towards love and towards future, and it's very interesting to experience two polarities, two such strong polarities, at the same time in the span of minutes or an hour or however long that was.
Speaker 3:I can only imagine what the border patrol thought and they were kind of looking at me crossing, but it was one of the really most well, aside from the wedding and then having children and the experiences that give you. I guess they shape you in a way. So yeah, so he was there, we sat in the taxi, we drove to Sofia, a capital of Bulgaria, and I had to go through a lot of like plethora of tests and blood draws and things like that, because they needed to make sure that I am healthy, which is very interesting from a systemic perspective.
Speaker 3:Men don't have to go through any tests, it is assumed and presumed that they're everything is fine with them. But a woman needs to go and get tested for many different things to make sure that she's ready to get married.
Speaker 2:That's a Bulgarian.
Speaker 1:Is that a Bulgarian requirement?
Speaker 3:Well, it was at the time. It was at the time. I don't know if it was a requirement in other countries other European or Eastern European countries but I found it very interesting that was fine though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she was amazing the whole way through. So we go to the embassy because we need to get married and we need to get papers for Mariana to be able to come to the States. So we go to the embassy and this embassy, no sorry, we don't handle any Serbian cases. You have to go to Hungary. Budapest embassy handles all the Serbian cases. Okay so, but we still got to get married. So we went to see all these doctors and all these blood draws and all these things, and she turns out perfect. And so we went.
Speaker 2:We go to City Hall to get married. We're bringing a translator with us so they can translate Bulgarian to us, so that we can say I do in Serbian, they can be translated to Bulgarian, that we can get married. And so we show up there. We got an appointment, a translator helps us, we show up there the correct time, we do everything we need to do, we pay what we need to pay and all this stuff, and then we are about to get married. But we have a problem because we need two witnesses to get married and we only have one witness to get married. So we can't get married. So I'm like let me, I'm going to go outside. Give me a few minutes, I'll be right back. So I go outside looking, I go looking, but I'm not finding anyone.
Speaker 2:And so across the street there's a perfume shop and I'm like maybe there's someone there, I'm going to go and I'll walk in, and there I'm like I need a witness for the wedding. Please come, the translators with me. She's helping and she's like the lady there is like you know, you, you're really lucky because it's a change of shift.
Speaker 3:So there's two of us.
Speaker 2:So there's two of us at the moment here and we can, we can do, we can help, because it just happens to be change of shift, otherwise it would not be possible. So we get a perfume lady to come over and be the second witness. We get married and we're really happy. So we have the special pizza celebration with our translator, the two of us.
Speaker 1:I see a John Cusack and Kate Beckinsdale movie. You know like with this, you know the whole thing happening yeah.
Speaker 2:And so then we have to get on the train to go to Hungary, so we finally have our translate uh Mary certificate and we get on a train and it's an overnight train to Hungary, romania, romania is kind of dodgy overnight trains.
Speaker 2:So we're like cuddling up and we eventually get to Budapest and we get to the embassy and you know, long story short, they're saying, yeah, this is good, this looking good. Uh, we're gonna, we're gonna process this and we're gonna let you know. We're like what do you mean? You're gonna let us know. So well, we're gonna let you know this. This takes some time to process, Like come back in three weeks.
Speaker 2:How long does it take? So there we are in Budapest for a forced three week honeymoon. Oh wow, and by our choosing and during the bombing, that is continuing. And so finally we get, we get the papers and we fly over to LA, and that's kind of the story for the grandchildren. But our 25th anniversary is in April, so we got married on April 28th. So what we're planning is, 25 years later, for us to show up at the same border crossing and make the same crossing over to me, and then for us to go and retrace the steps of the Sophia trip, the train, all the things in the Budapest force honeymoon. This is going to be a honeymoon by choice.
Speaker 2:Second time around and we'll document by video and things like that in the picture, so that that's coming up. It's going to be an adventure this spring. We'll share about it online. So that's, that's a little bit of our journey and backstory. And you asked from the systemic point of view, how do we? How do we function? So a lot of the is this yours? And a lot of inclusion, Many, many, many jokes and recognitions and acknowledgements of who's in the conversation oh, that's my dad, oh, no, that's your mom. So lots of laughing and inclusion and recognition of who's all joining the conversation at different moments and different times and what systemic dynamics are present and who else is joining the conversation in the moment and where is this coming from and why is this showing up and all these things. So that's kind of a daily, all day, every day thing for us.
Speaker 3:And you know it comes down again. It's a cliche, but awareness a lot of it and it's. I would say it's easier when one person is kind of hijacked, quote unquote, it's. The system is speaking through one person Right. And then the other person can kind of see that and they can jokingly call it out. You know, but when there's two, when we are both hijacked, and especially by the huge, it's not just your parent or the grandparent, it is the system itself, like the masculine and the feminine. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, and when we, you know, communicate and you know we hardly ever argue, don't yell at each other we resolve it, you know, in a very nice and calm matter. And sometimes when the masculine and the feminine start speaking through us, it takes a little bit of extra awareness to say you know, because I would say some things. This morning I got upset about something had nothing to do with Ivan, it was more and I got on this feminist tirade. It was. I was so angry and I'm washing dishes and I'm angry and I'm like like full on feminists and that's not me speaking. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know that is the part of the system that I am, you know, speaking for the end. You know Ivan was present and he heard it out, whereas he could have been. Well, let me tell you something. Woman shut up and do your job.
Speaker 3:So it's just extra, extra awareness. And there was a funny situation a few days ago. So my mom passed away two years ago from complications from COVID and you know I recognize myself a lot in her, especially as I get older. And so the other day I was talking to my dad and he was telling me how him and Ivan's dad were talking on the phone and now they're actually, you know, like talking more to each other because they're free and they can, you know, like talk and you know do and plan and you know kind of compare experiences and stuff. So first actually I talked to Ivan's dad first and he was telling me about stuff, and then my dad was telling me about stuff they're pretty much the same like just retelling what they were talking about in their conversation. And I found myself very uneasy with the whole thing and worried and downright judgmental like how dare you? You know, plan this or wanting to buy that, and and then I was like this is my mom, oh, wow.
Speaker 3:Like I'm listening for her and this is her reaction, this is not my reaction. I caught myself and then I'm like, okay, you're just a little girl, you're the daughter and you're the daughter-in-law, Let them do. And then I just jokingly and then I said you guys do whatever you want. And I'm thinking to myself just don't get in trouble. And then I told Ivan.
Speaker 3:I said you know what? I had a funny reaction there for several minutes and that if I didn't, if I wasn't aware who was reacting, I would have probably said something that was disrespectful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, from the position of the partner, not from the position of the daughter.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that would have been out of place. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So a lot of things like this. I don't know if you got a chance to something that we shared about what happened during COVID a major, major, huge testament to how we are, how we are listening for each other in the dynamics and the systemic perceptions and awareness During COVID like at its peak, actually at the beginning, when it was really when it was the most scary our son turned 18 years old on March 6th, 2020. And so it was literally. People were dying everywhere and we didn't know why.
Speaker 1:It was like the end of the world.
Speaker 2:We didn't know who was dying. It was like random. Yeah, we didn't know what it was. Nobody knew what this thing was yet and he's turning 18. So he's like I'm going to go out to celebrate with my friends. That's my 18th birthday. And so this is happening in this living room. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, in this living room and Mariana is about to blow her gasket.
Speaker 2:She's literally. She got really red in the face and she tried to hold back, but she was. The energy was so strong. She's like no hell, no, you're not going anywhere tonight. There is no way over my dead body. You live in this house. And the energy was so strong.
Speaker 2:I was like I was, I was watching and I was like whoa, such huge energy. And my son was like yes, I am, I just turned 18 and I'm doing this. So it was like a huge, huge thing. And me, as the husband and the father, I'm like watch out, just be quiet, because you're about to get it. Whatever you say here, you are screwed. So I'm holding back on, on. You know, I feel for him because he is only. He only turns 18 one time. So I don't want to, I don't want to stifle him. But then my partner feels very unsafe, to the point of really getting out of control, violent even, maybe. So I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like this is huge. So I'm like okay, time out, Can I call a time out? So, and they were like they will. They both turned towards me and they were like don't you time out us?
Speaker 1:Is that like an unstoppable force meeting an unmovable object? Yeah, it was, it was really rough.
Speaker 2:So I said would you be interested to explore a way where everyone can get what they want? And they were like it got sturner, like there is no way that everyone can get what, because I'm getting what I want, which means he ain't getting what he wants.
Speaker 2:Jedi mind tricks, but I was like what if we just just pause for a moment for a possibility, Would you be, would you be willing for that? And they kind of calmed down for a moment. And we all calmed down for a moment, for a moment. And in systemic work, if you recognize a disproportionate reaction of any kind that's not appropriate for the environment that you're in, some kind of systemic dynamic is occurring, some kind of entanglement, something, some kind of hijacking. So I was like, okay, so what is this reaction solving? What are problems or solutions? What is this reaction a solution for? And why so much energy? And so I kind of like paused and rush of insight came through. I'm like whoa, this is not about today. And so I was like, wow.
Speaker 2:So Marianna's grandfather from the mother side decided in 1944 that he was gonna go with his friends to war and his parents actually used their, exerted their influence to get him out of going and they secured his stay and he ran. At 3 am he snuck out and went to war and died within weeks. And I was like whoa, guys, this is not about this, this is about your grandpa Disobeying his parents and leaving to war to die. And as I said those words, Marianna started to cry and my son's eyes opened really, really big, and that's incredible.
Speaker 2:And so the recognition and acknowledgement of that moment, right there, that her, her, her system was re experiencing the trauma. So from 44 to 20, it's like 56 plus 20, 76 years gap, and the situation was mirrored because he wanted to go with his friends out into danger, and so evolutionary force was happening, yeah.
Speaker 2:Systemic repetition. And so once Marianna saw that, she really cried, she really connected, she was really composed herself. And then we worked out a way where he and his friends can wear masks and they can go for a short time and they can come back and minimize the chances of anything happening to them. And so everyone did get what they wanted. Marianna got the safety that she wanted, because she's the safety guy, and Luca got to celebrate with his friends and that was one of the one of the biggest, most high stakes experiences of. So that's kind of how our our lives are and how we're, how we're listening and bouncing things off and navigating things. It's not always possible to get that kind of a nugget, but you know it's you. Any chance you get to give yourself more sovereignty and autonomy and elbow room and really presence yourself in the here and now in this life. The more choice you have and the more ability to navigate in the direction you want within within the limited scope that we and influence that we have as individuals in this, in this life.
Speaker 3:So and our children have been exposed to systemic works. It's very young, so now we're talking about it, you know, more than a decade on and they look at things through a systemic lens pretty much all the time. These shows situations in school, you know the older one was a soccer player. So teams, they will see and pick up the dynamics and the patterns and the principles and you know it's they're even seeking out to watch if they were to go and see a movie or you know any kind of TV show or something. They're picking something that is related and how they can recognize those patterns and we discuss it afterwards because everything is pretty much systemic. You can find the patterns and you can find, you know, even the the latest Spider-Man movie into the multi spider-verse.
Speaker 3:Actually we watched that and it was so funny because, like, visually he was as beautiful as he was offensive a little bit.
Speaker 1:You know, so offensive, yeah, yeah, so visually offensive is I think the yeah, it's like that's such a great phrase, yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. So they watched it. And then they asked me to watch it and I said I'm not sure I saw the first one, I'm not sure I want to see this, but it's systemic, I have to see it. So I'm like, okay, let's see it. So I saw it and I was blown away how systemic it was, if you remember that same thing when the person dies you know, and they're like having the visually, a visual representation of every single Spider-Man that loses somebody.
Speaker 3:And then they were like we have to watch. They said we have to make that watch it and I'm like I don't know. So we sat down and then they watched it for the third time, me for the second, and I went for the first time and he afterwards he was just like what the hell was that he was? He was like too much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And then the younger one explained it so well. He's like, well, remember this part and then this part, and it's. You know, we're not too big of a fan of Spider-Man movies, but then we know enough to connect. So when he explained it so nicely, and then the old one chimed in, and then I got it, promise I took a nap in the middle. I wasn't going to say I was saving a face for you.
Speaker 2:So the truth is the truth, and I took a nap in the middle. So, there was no way for me to connect the dots.
Speaker 1:It seems like it's the 180 opposite of a silent meditation, like that movie is literally the 180 degree opposite of that.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Pretty much yes.
Speaker 3:But that's a good thing, you know, because it's not just the thing that mom and dad do or that we were made to do, or something that we're being referred to. It's actually a part of our lives and we get to recognize that. And the younger one he's not as much now, but he was a big student of history. He loved history. So we actually had long discussions about that, how systemic repetition happens, you know, on the smaller scale within countries and then on the larger scale also in the world and we even gave him an idea Maybe that will still come to fruition, I don't know, but we kind of give him an idea that he was toying with to create some kind of a YouTube channel or something where he will explore different aspects of history and different things that happened over the years from the systemic lens.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's cool.
Speaker 3:And how can we kind of like the Ray Dalio?
Speaker 1:does it for the business world. That's awesome.
Speaker 3:He would do it from the systemic perspective. So you know, fingers crossed, maybe we'll happen one day.
Speaker 1:That would be man. I mean, you know they say history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it often rhymes. You know that's what we're talking about, right? And if you can highlight that from a systemic lens, there's so much insight in that. Yeah, it's so interesting of what, like, our grandchildren will do with all the work that we've done on our side, is like what their future is going to look like. Right.
Speaker 2:Oh man, it's the future is not looking too pretty.
Speaker 1:I'm so hopeful.
Speaker 2:I hope so too man.
Speaker 1:I'm so hopeful. I don't know, maybe it's ignorance, but I'm just hopeful because I think that we're trending generally in the right direction.
Speaker 2:God bless you. I hope you're right. I wish you're right. I hope you can lean into your optimism.
Speaker 3:So we evolved a lot as humans and we're still evolving, and especially in terms of technology. And then you would think that as we evolve, we get kinder to each other, we get more connected, we get more available for each other, we get more unified, we get more accepting and humans.
Speaker 3:Yes, human is a whole. Like you, would think that we will get that as we're evolving, because the human consciousness is evolving. We're getting more connected to the universe, knowingly. Before that we were knowingly, but what it's back to what your point was on the systemic resistance. So there is a feeling of like we're evolving and we're going towards that, but there's still systemic resistance that is making us not be unified.
Speaker 3:We're either more divided and more further away and more disconnected. So it's like two, you would think. But then no, no, no, no, no. So I can see your optimism, but then also I can see Ivan's doubt.
Speaker 1:If we're collective, of all the previous experiences from all of our ancestors, I can't help but be hopeful in that, because of people around the world that are doing this. I'm not saying that constellations is the answer, but I'm sure it's part of the equation for the solution.
Speaker 2:Well, it definitely gives us a few lenses and some things like that I just thought of, like when systems go into protectionism, meaning that they want to keep the status quo, different parts of the system, then they go more extreme. We can see the polarization that's happening To me. That's a preparation and an increase of pressure to the eventual evolutionary force igniting to clear the space. So there will be a clearing of space on many multiple dimensions, from the ecology's point of view, from the government side, from the politics side, from the business side. So many different simultaneous clearings, so the destabilization of the unhealthy systems will be very turbulent. And so maybe after the clearing hopefully the clearing doesn't leave consequences that are not turn aroundable, if you would.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, recoverable that yeah.
Speaker 2:So that we can regenerate from after the clearing. But yeah, clearing is coming.
Speaker 1:So when you talked about evolutionary first, the first time I freaked out I was like oh shit, like World War II, world War III, I started thinking about all those things. But then I was like you know what also is evolutionary force? Modern medicine, the internet, things that just are things and they're not modern sewerage is a Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King.
Speaker 2:Microsoft Parks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, microsoft Parks, microsoft Office, you know, like the abundance that a computer program, that Microsoft Office created for the planet for standardizing production on a technology level is incalculable. I think this is not my original thought as one of my friends, but like I was like, oh, there's evolutionary force that goes, that trends in both directions, and I think the evolution, like what I've been thinking a lot of, is like the evolutionary force, like ping-pongs in both directions, right, but also that isolation becomes less pronounced and more balanced in its future. And I'm like is AI potentially an evolutionary force that will uncover the hidden dynamics in so many things that will point us in a direction of consolidation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the unknown is accelerating towards us. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's almost 8am here. It's here yeah.
Speaker 2:It's there is a disruption coming. It's already here and the disruption is going to progressively get louder. So I think that that's coming. That's kind of like a certainty. And, yeah, I think that something organically came out of me one of the trainees that we held, and it was the Olympics are coming and we don't know what's going to be included in those Olympics, but we know that we're going to have to participate, and so how do you prepare for the disciplines you don't know are coming?
Speaker 1:I think if you have a skill set that knows how to navigate the unknown might be a good solution for that.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I said, the Olympics are coming as a kind of a mobilization for what would be a set of skills or what would be the lens that would best prepare you for the major challenge that is coming, when you don't know what that challenge is going to look like. And so systemic lens, I think, is one of the best coming to the moment fresh, being able to empty, being able to adapt, being able to shift, being able to acknowledge, being able to acknowledge and face reality, all of those things literally.
Speaker 2:This is the like they say in Mandalorian. This is the way.
Speaker 1:This is the way.
Speaker 2:This is the way for the preparation for the unknown, and so I think, if we're going to say something that might be curiosity building for people that may hear this, and what would be the value, the facility, the capacity, the reason, the purpose for learning more about systemic work, this would be it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you become a clear vessel when you work on your shit. I mean that's, you're not led by your trauma, you're led by you know the proper relationship with the unknown.
Speaker 2:Yeah, your level of awareness is higher and your availability for the moment is higher. And then you're available, be available for co-creation. Because of your presence is available, it's a lot higher. So if there is a disruption, the people that can approach the new with the fresh eyes and be the most adaptable with the new that is coming from the unknown, which we cannot predict, those are the people that are going to have the most agency. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They'll be the most useful for themselves and those people close to them. They will operate locally and if you can be the agent, if you can be the free agent, okay. So this is a call to all the people who feel a calling to be a free agent in this entangled, systemic world. Yeah. How free can you make yourself? How free, how freely can you enable yourself? How much agency will you open to and include that would? That would prepare you for the something that can you cannot be prepared for. Yeah, by definition.
Speaker 1:By definition yeah.
Speaker 2:That's what I would say for for people who are interested and curious about this work. This is not a user poker term. This is something you learn in 15 minutes. Maybe you you can, you can grasp conceptually this is. It takes some. It takes a lifetime, maybe several lifetimes, to really say master the other metaphor. I don't feel that you master the unknown. No.
Speaker 1:Master is not the correct word you master yourself in the unknown. You sit, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:You prepare, prepare your vessel. Yeah. For the high seas. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's a beautiful place to end it. Ivan, how do people get a hold of you? And Mariana, what is that Know you're active on Facebook and social media.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for our business work and business world solutions and evolving organizations and freeing. Our mission is to free as many people, teams and organizations to overflow with their natural goodness and what they have inside inherently the essence of who they are to be able to overflow freedom. For that, that's our mission. And for the organizational side, go to systemic approach, institutecom, and for more of the systemic side, you probably need to go to Facebook. There is a group called systemic approach, systemic work all day, every day. And in the systemic work all day, every day group we're going to run next Sunday, actually the 15th of October, at noon Pacific time.
Speaker 2:We're going to run a reunion and sacred relationship exploration, how to have love and freedom with partners, parents and children and we say love and freedom because one without the other is not complete and we're going to. It's going to be very experiential. So, if this is calling for you, come and join the group on Facebook and we're going to announce there the Zoom link for the actual experience on the 15th and we're going to be diving in exploring how can we allow both love and freedom in our most important relationships in life. And thank you, john, for having us. We went down some rabbit holes that were very, very interesting. Really good ice cream and really a pleasure to be with you. I can feel your heart and sincerity and wanting to serve the world, the people, the work, and it's a huge pleasure. Love what you're doing and consider us a support and resource for you, and we look forward to other things we can do together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll do it again. We'll do it again. Thank you, john. You guys have been great. Thank you for everything that you provided my life really. You know from the business side and from the personal side, and to other members of my family as well. So you guys are always good in my book and if you ever have to bury a body, let me know, I'll get the shovel.
Speaker 2:I hope we don't have to meet under those circumstances.
Speaker 3:You never know, you never know.
Speaker 2:That's an important, important thing Deep trust. Deep trust, yeah, so thank you guys.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4:John, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you.
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